HikeArizona.COM

Im sure it would be easy to trun this in to an angry fight, but I still think its worth talking about.


I have not been in Arizona long. I am still learning about hiking here as apposed to the south or the northwest. so that being said..

I dont understand why people here seem to get bent when someone says "I was off trail".. how did a "trail" get started in the first place, I mean someone had to do it first.. right?

there have been a few adventures I have had that I know some could learn form but I wont post them here because of how some act here. Weather its getting a little lost or not wearing the right gear or whatever the adversity I have come across... I have learned so far that here is not the place to talk about it because some would rather flame then add..

is this a place to take and learn from others?

The deset is an indiscriminate executioner. there is a lot I have learned and some really cool people I have meet here. But there is always something more to learn. Do some of you tho, think you have it all figured out? and therefore have some kind of a "right" to carve up someone for making a mistake?

Like I said some people here are really encouraging and helpful so this not directed at everyone.. but some could be a little more helpful and constructive instead of being so quick to point out mistakes..

of course this is just my opinion.. but the goal here I thought was not to have everyone doing exactly the same thing. everyone enjoys the outdoors in a different way. But the goal here should be that we all get back safely with the good the bad and the ugly so that all my learn form that experance. again JMO..

AZhiker.

No one plans on going out, getting lost, running out out of water and falling. It happens. Knowing what to do when it happens and being prepared for it is the difference between knowing what you're doing and not knowing what you're doing.

You're right, if you posted that trip report you would have had a handful; of replies that said what you did wrong and how you could have been better prepared. Partly because as a community we care about your safety and don't want you to do the same thing again and partly because new hikers reading these post might learn from it without having to experience it.

We've all made mistakes. I think there was even a thread once where everyone posted their biggest mistakes. In what you said about your trip, there are a few things you could have done better before you left your house.

And yes, we should all post what ever we want. Good or bad. But if you post something you did that others might consider bad, you will hear about it.
If I posted that I went on a hike, with my secretly homosexual friend that is also a boy scout troop leader and we killed a few animals just for fun with the really big knives and guns we like to carry just too be tough. Then we ate greasy burritos and drank beer, leaving our food wrapers beer cans and cigarette butts on the trail because we didn't want to put them in the pockets of our military style BDUs. After that we built a dam on a creek because we thought it was a nice place for a lake and we intended on coming pack and building a hydro electric plant some day. Then we ran into some people that laughed at us because we had HAZ written on our foreheads in black marker because we are anti patch and don't like colorful bandanas. To top the day off we though it would be a hoot to roll big rocks down the hill, of course we did not check to be sure there was no one at the bottom before we did this either. There was also something about goats but I can't remember it... (am I missing anything here?) I'd probably never hear the end of it.

In response to Daryl's reply:

Geez Daryl,

Is there something you want to share with us??

hehe...Daryl,


on that trip.. I did all the research i could do without actually going there mysefl..weather, for temp and chance of rain, were the water is running?.. I stoped by the ranger station on the way in. I cant think of anything I did wrong.. other then go alone and just about everyone here does that form time to time..

I had people that were watching for me to.. so if I wasnt back by a certain time there were going to call for help.

that does not mean I havent made mistakes. Ive made plenty.

and Matt I said i was an experanced hiker. not inexperanced:) i am not as experanced in the desert.

AZ hiker-
"It's always further than it looks.
It's always taller than it looks.
And it's always harder than it looks." — The 3 rules of mountaineering.

"It's a round trip. Getting to the summit is optional, getting down is mandatory." — Ed Viesturs.

There are always things that can go wrong that you cannot prepare for. The more books that I read about survival , the more I learn that people die from:
1. Making simple fatal mistakes/choices/decisions (denial)
2. being unprepared
3. panicking
4. not problem solving/not having the skills to get out of a jam.

A couple solutions to your problems would have been to recognize the danger earlier on. (low water, hotter temps) then turn around or seek shade.
I read that you have to work with the desert not against it. If you get in a real bind, seek shade, know how to find water, and travel at night.
There are some tremendous books out there about desert survival. My favorite was written by this guy down in the EL Paso area- he was kind of pompous and overly simple in some aspects, but nonetheless, made some excellent points.

Joe was kind enough to remind me of the name and author
http://www.hikearizona.com/books.php?REV=1&ID=68

THanks

You are here today so you didn't really do anything wrong. I do think you could have been better prepared though.

AZ_Hiker wrote:and Matt I said i was an experanced hiker. not inexperanced:) i am not as experanced in the desert.

Oh, sorry. Well then, scratch that but the rest of what I said still stands. Keep in mind though I don't think anyone here (at least in this post) is judging any one else for their off-trail mistakes or decisions. (not even Pete, our resident on-trail advocate, Right Pete? ) In fact I would like to hear more particulars on the trip you took. (or is that the trip that took you?) What trail was it and what time of year?


On a more philosophic note...

AZ_Hiker wrote:The deset is an indiscriminate executioner!

I don't think the desert is an "indiscriminate executioner". Indiscriminate maybe, but executioner implies some kind of intent to act upon you, that leaves me with the notion that the desert in some way cares for you (good or bad, whatever). Thats where I think you're wrong. The desert is completely apathetic. What you bring there is all you. What I'm saying is, the desert won't kill you; it doesn't care about you. If you die in the desert you killed yourself.

I do apologize if I ever came off as a militant on trail user
I will try to be the Ghandi of on trail from now on.

I do apologize if I ever came off as a militant on trail user-that's really not the case. Use them if you can, etc. Lizard said it well.
I will try to be the Ghandi of on trail from now on.

believe me folks I have thought and thourght about that trip. trying to learn eveything I can form it. I was really really close to not making it out. infact i have never been that that bad of shape. the funny part was,

I was about 1/2 mile from the trail head on my way back when I ran in to some hunters on a 4 wheeler.. they could tell that I was not all there, and I had a real bad limp and asked me about 3 times if they could give me a lift back to my truck... when they told me how far it was I was like no way!! in my mind I had made it that far, and after what I had to go through!!.. I was gong to crawl the rest of the way if I had to.


on that philosophic note:)

"the desert is an indiscriminate executioner" is actually a quote form one of my fav books, Dune. we could talk aobut it all day but maybe we should save it for when you and I actually get to go on a hike? but I dont know if I entirly agree. man vs. man, man vs machine, and man vs nature are the three classic strugles. I do agaree that nature itself has no way of caring if you live or die.

It's amazing how a forum about off-trail hiking turned into a forum about whether or not someone was as prepared as they should have been for a hike. Ah, the beauty of discussion.
It seems to me that AZHiker was as prepared as he could have been for his hike. Daryl dissagrees, but with what? Daryl, if you can control air temperature and precipitation then you are a marvel of mankind and I would be honored to meet you!
Matt, I couldn't agree more with last paragraph of your post above mine. Been reading a little too much Edward Abbey though, haven't we? A phenomenol author none-the-less. Keep reading!
One last note: Some of you should check out the "HAZ Spell Checker" button. It would save those of us who read English the time and trouble of having to decipher every other word in your posts.

Matt

and no big about weather i'm experienced or an inexperienced hiker.. i think its healthy to always think of yourself as inexperienced because in that frame of mind you are more teachable. I would much rather be that then someone that thinks they have it figured out..kinda like riding my motorcycle.. the moment I have no fear is the moment I should not ride..


and I was up at hellsgate. I know you know how rough that area is. the monsoon hit right when I was at the steepest part of the trail going into to hells gate.. at that point the trail was more of a wash then a trail and there was no way to know where I was stepping .. actually i'm suppressed I only fell once in that area. it was about a month and a half ago just after we all meet at suger daddys.

Lizard wrote:I posted this awhile ago in reply to one of the articles, but it seems appropriate to this thread also. These are the guidelines that the Leave No Trace organization has put out for off-trail hiking:

-Select routes that follow durable surfaces. For example, rock, sand, gravel and snow are all good choices.
-When you cannot walk on a durable surface, spread the group out so that no one is walking in another's footsteps.
-Limit group size to 10 people or less. (I would make this number even lower personally)
-Stay off game trails unless walking cross-country would do more damage to plants or soil.
-Leave your route unmarked. Please do not leave blazes, cairns, or flagging.
-When camping, spread your tents over a wide area. Do not congregate in one spot.

What is the rationale for not hiking on game trails? I often seek them out.

could if have to do with your smell? forcing animals off there trail and making a new one?

I do some off-trail hiking. However, you'd be hard pressed to tell where I've gone. I practice tracking on many of my hike, wild animals and bipeds, so I know what leaves a mark and what doesn't. I don't mind others who go off-trail if they respect the earth and use LNT ethics on their wanderings. I don't think anyone here would blaze a new trail.

Azhiker, I'm glad you made it out. Hopefully you were able to see a few things you could have done differently that will prepare you for future adventures. (Perhaps carry more water or take along iodine to treat water you find.) Part of preparation is being ready for the unplanned event. I carry a space blanket just in case I need it to keep warm, catch rain, keep dry, signal my location, or use it to help someone else.

I've made some great mistakes and managed to live though them. I finished my first Ridgeline hike about 1.5 gallons low on fluids. In other words, even after drinking half a gallon of water and gatoraid, I was 8 pounds lighter than when I started the hike. Like cold working of steel, each hit makes me stronger and better prepared for the future.

I don't think that a bad experience means someone should not have gone out. I want more people to enjoy getting outdoors. That will mean more people with a vested interest in preserving the outdoors. I just hope folks prepare enough so they will always make it out alive, to learn and improve and go out again.

azhiker96, thanks.. it was good to get home.. I did not make it till the next day tho..
I do carry iodine and a space blanket along with a half a dozen other items I wont go on a hike like that without..I dont go on any hike with out them now that I think about it. they all amount to a few oz.

I took 4 liters of water.. for 8 miles that should be enough right? there was water in the canyon where I was going so I planed to refill when I got there. I think it was the extra heat that I did it to me this time. that and it sure seemed longer then 8 miles.. I know what the topo says but.. I went back to the ranger station and they said it was more like 11 miles.. I dont know which is true but it felt like 11:)

As far as the heat gos.. there was no way of knowing it was going to get that hot. I left early and it was really nice out. it jsut got hoter and hoter and you get to a point of no return, if you know what i mean.

im not saying I did everything right.. I would chage a few things now that I know better.

Sounds like you prepared in many ways

if you went shortly after the Sugar Daddy's night on the 14 of August that puts you just below the rim in prime monsoon season

you said 10% chance of rain forecasted
you added it was 10 degrees hotter then forecasted
that's your catalyst for a mighty storm

I'd have been there in a heartbeat had I know, camera ready!

I could write up what I do to prepare for a hike, but I'm pretty pumpkin port and that could be a big book.
I've had similar adventures to this one and I learned from them, as will you. Since those adventures I've been out on those same adventures, with storms and weather extremes and I was prepared for them.

Two things to note quickly though, monsoon storms are rarely expected. If you are hiking in monsoon season you should always expect it. If you do get caught in one, they rarely last more then 15-20 minutes so it's best to get under your space blanket and wait it out. Also, in monsoon season, no matter what the weather man may say, it can get very hot and you should be prepared for that.

And no I can't control the weather but I do prepare for the weather and as long as I have, I've never had a problem.

yall are right.. I did know that it was monsoon season.. I did have the right gear on me/in my pack.. the problem was that it hit at the worst time. it did last only about 20 or 30 mins. but that was long enough. I think this was the same monsoon that hit the queen creek area and did all that damage, it was the same day I do konw that. I don't know if the one that hit queen creek came in form the north if so.. I was out in it:) altho i'm sure is would have been stronger by the time it got down here..

Hey, this forum started because AZ hiker thought some were too quick to correct him and he is getting ganged up on in his own forum
Sorry!
'preciate the honesty and willingness to share

I disagree with Matt about the desert being apathetic or whatever. I prefer to personify it. I believe that nature sends you warnings if it is not pleased and you must pay attention and respect it. If you fail to listen to the desert/mountain/canyon it will be at your own peril.Like it is capable of creating a set of circumstances that are varied and changing. Does that make any sense? Perhaps it is the sailor in me. But if one thinks of it is apathetic, then you partially discredit it's ability to vary its conditions and circumstances. It is not static, and it does tend to warn you. I know what he is saying, but, if one pays attention to it like a person and thinks of it that way, I think one might be more prone to pay attention to it and respect it. THat's why sailors feel about the ocean. Nary a sailor will refer to the sea as an inanimate. She is a siren, or a witch, or whatever. Is not the desert our ocean? Does anyone else feel that way?

Matt-Wax philosophical will ya? Snick please save me from my own insanity....the voices aargh!!!!!!

In response to pfredricks' reply:

Not inanamate or static Pete, just apathetic. Yes there are warnings, but I don't believe they're for our sake. I think either way you look at nature, it still creates a feeling of awe and respect, and thats what counts.