HikeArizona.COM

Don't know how many people get the New York Times, but thought you might also find this interesting: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/scien ... -says.html

Let's vote to legalize bears! The real problem is that bears are illegal! If bears were legal, then the black bear market would just disappear!

Legalize it.

azhiker96 wrote:soldiers might be able to join hands

hmmm... thousands of men in uniform holding hands? Sounds a little "Village People" to me. That might attract a different type of bear all together.

Tough_Boots wrote:

azhiker96 wrote:soldiers might be able to join hands

hmmm... thousands of men in uniform holding hands? Sounds a little "Village People" to me. That might attract a different type of bear all together.

Bear sexuality is a new and developing area of biological studies.

This thread is breaking down in historical fashion.

The Stillernator wrote:This thread is breaking down in historical fashion.

Didn't you really mean to say "hysterical" fashion...

I simply can't bear it...

The bears are only coming here to do the work our bears will not do :bdh:

I don't understand why anybody cares if two bears get married. How does it affect anybody else?
:A1:

The bears are crossing over the border into our country to have their offspring. That way their cubs will be considered natural wildlife....

:bdh: Is it dead yet????

Are you kidding? We have bearly gotten going...

A big problem with the walls in certain stretches along the border is that they've pushed immigrant traffic and drug-smuggling into more remote areas that are more valuable to wildlife. The Chiricahuas and Huachucas, for example, are getting trashed because it's easier to cross the border there instead of in Nogales. BTW lots and lots of drugs and people sneak across the border in metropolitan Nogales. The only things that have slowed the flow of illegal immigrants has been the poor economy.

Jim Lyding wrote: The only things that have slowed the flow of illegal immigrants has been the poor economy.

That and the cave-ins in Nogales....

Jim Lyding wrote:A big problem with the walls in certain stretches along the border is that they've pushed immigrant traffic

Perhaps you have not read this entire thread to see where this discussion has gone. Or you're drunk. Or both. Probably both.

Well if bears are going to come here they need to learn to growl in English.

I know that the cubs really like to play at hohokam park in mesa, and people even pay to watch them frolick. I even think a lot of them are from latin american countries. Not sure how they crossed the border though. Once they grow up I think they migrate to Chicago and play with lions and vikings.

The Stillernator wrote:

Jim Lyding wrote:A big problem with the walls in certain stretches along the border is that they've pushed immigrant traffic

Perhaps you have not read this entire thread to see where this discussion has gone. Or you're drunk. Or both. Probably both.

I wish I was even more drunk (Thank You to Simi Landslide) after reading posts about how the fencing in urban Nogales and San Diego have made policing the border easier by pushing immigrant- and drug-smuggling traffic out into the boonies. I'd have more faith in human intellect if I hadn't. I'll have whatever he's having because it's obviously working. Talk to a Border Patrol officer, and he/she will most certainly NOT claim: "We built these huge walls in Nogales, San Diego, etc. and the walls have made our jobs easier." What they will tell you is that instead of being able to play "red rover" in likely smuggling locations, they have to rely upon satellites that they don't have a lot of access to, aircraft which fly over thousands of square miles of territory, and blind luck because they're patrolling a border that's thousands of miles long. Of course the areas that have heavily-fortified border fencing still see massive amounts of people and drugs who go through- and under the border. This is simple economics, people, and trying to frame the argument within the template of a political argument brands oneself as someone not worth listening to with respect to this particular issue. I'm being kind here which means I should probably drink some more.

Of course building walls along the border and encouraging illegal crossers to utilize wild areas is bad for wildlife. That's a no-brainer. Failing to realize that that's what's going to happen after building fences along the border is beyond foolish, and thinking that building massive walls along the border will slow or even stop illegal immigration is even dumber. Human beings have proven time and again that economics will prevail over everything else. Think about if you had to choose between your family starving and you getting past some wall that was built by the lowest-bidder. I guarantee most of you will beat that stupid wall. The people who frame life's struggles in a political prism (with the requisite blame heaped upon media outlets that don't kowtow to certain belief-systems) should let the grownups make the decisions. It's better that way.

As for the bears, they really stunk it up today. I'm cool with that as I have Aaron Rodgers on my fantasy football team. My team is fearsome, and doesn't care about no borders despite winning 8 games in a row then losing last week in the playoff semifinals. We should be embarrassed as human beings for only having 1 game this Sunday even if it is Jesus' birthday. I thought Jesus loved us? And the bears....a giant HD television only makes the warts stand out more.

Thank you Stiller for the texted pictures that I've spread throughout the galaxy (keep 'em coming), Joe for HikeArizona.COM, stupid political arguments that I get sucked into, and not forgetting that it's Merry Pumpkin Christmas.

Jim Lyding wrote:I'd have more faith in human intellect if I hadn't. I'll have whatever he's having because it's obviously working. Talk to a Border Patrol officer, and he/she will most certainly NOT claim: "We built these huge walls in Nogales, San Diego, etc. and the walls have made our jobs easier." What they will tell you is that instead of being able to play "red rover" in likely smuggling locations, they have to rely upon satellites that they don't have a lot of access to, aircraft which fly over thousands of square miles of territory, and blind luck because they're patrolling a border that's thousands of miles long. Of course the areas that have heavily-fortified border fencing still see massive amounts of people and drugs who go through- and under the border. This is simple economics, people, and trying to frame the argument within the template of a political argument brands oneself as someone not worth listening to with respect to this particular issue. I'm being kind here which means I should probably drink some more.

I'd make ignorant insults about 'intellect' as well, but I think you've provided plenty of that here.

That said, what conjecture is your above post based on? I personally do work with/for the very border patrol (and BLM, and sheriff offices) you speak of and they don't say a single thing you claim they 'will'. Spend some time in the field working on this issue and you'll understand things the way they are, not the way the various spin doctors want you to. I also don't recall anyone saying that the fence areas don't still have traffic of the type you've mentioned (underneath, drug packages slipped through the fence gaps/openings/slats, etc.) Of course some still makes it through. I suppose that's reason enough for you to just make the job even easier for the cartels though?

Jim Lyding wrote:Of course building walls along the border and encouraging illegal crossers to utilize wild areas is bad for wildlife. That's a no-brainer. Failing to realize that that's what's going to happen after building fences along the border is beyond foolish, and thinking that building massive walls along the border will slow or even stop illegal immigration is even dumber. Human beings have proven time and again that economics will prevail over everything else. Think about if you had to choose between your family starving and you getting past some wall that was built by the lowest-bidder. I guarantee most of you will beat that stupid wall. The people who frame life's struggles in a political prism (with the requisite blame heaped upon media outlets that don't kowtow to certain belief-systems) should let the grownups make the decisions. It's better that way.

I'd like to know what you mean by "encouraging illegal crossers" as well, if you wish to respond. I'm pretty certain the goals here are to hamper such activities, not encourage them.

With regards to walls being 'bad for wildlife', so are our cities, roads, dams, bridges, travellers shipping oddball beetles to other continents and having crops wipes out, and so on and so forth. Human activity in general tends to have a negative impact on nature as a whole (wildlife included.) That is definitely not going to cause any of the above to stop happening. (There's a reason I liken the human race to a virus, but that's another story entirely )

PS: I'd love it if you would stop acting like all border-enforcement operations are nothing but an anti-family, immigrant-hating machine and flat out ignoring the real issues at hand, with drug smuggling being at the very top of that list in my book. Us 'grown-ups' would appreciate it.

I apologize for being a little over-the-top. My bad. I guess the whole point is that we need to reduce/eliminate the demand for the labor that illegal immigrants provide, and help/force Mexico to get its act together. Simple economics dictates that an interchange will occur when- and where there is a nexus of supply and demand. A border fence will not stop it any more than a speed bump stops automobiles.

"PS: I'd love it if you would stop acting like all border-enforcement operations are nothing but an anti-family, immigrant-hating machine and flat out ignoring the real issues at hand, with drug smuggling being at the very top of that list in my book. Us 'grown-ups' would appreciate it."
Weird....I have no idea where that came from, but it certainly reflects NOTHING I wrote in my post.

Additionally, the straw man argument that "cities, roads, etc. are bad for wildlife so we shouldn't worry about the border fence" doesn't fly.

Ok this thread has now officially become unbearable.