HikeArizona.COM

Posted: **Mar 15 2020 10:56 am**

Now that we are living in the era of "social distancing", it shouldn't be too surprising to see some hiking venues closed.

Here are a couple of examples:
* The Navajo Nation has closed all of their tribal parks: https://navajonationparks.org/public-notice/
* The road up to Kitt Peak is closed to the public...here is a pic that a friend took when he attempted to ride his bicycle up to the top: [ broken link removed ]

It would seem like hiking, especially in remote areas, would be one of the safer things that you can do...but with the frenzy that is going on, I imagine that there will be more closures in the coming days

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 4:17 pm**

Unless/until there is a proven vaccine available for the whole population, I believe the most important thing is testing EVERYONE.
Only then can it be determined:
- who to isolate
- who to quarantine (btw, they are not the same)
- who have anti-bodies and MAY be immune (still not definitive)
- who needs to keep following all prudent protective measures

We should be following the model of South Korea where they did extensive testing followed by tracing to determine who was being infected by who so they could isolate/quarantine/protect as required.

By doing what they did, out of a population of just under 52 million they have 10,450 cases and 208 deaths... that is one of the success stories to emulate, not the opposite of what this administration is doing (or not, as the case may be).
If South Koreans had continued dying at the rate of Americans they would have 1280 deaths, not just 208.

But again, until there is a vaccine, I'd like to see universal testing... or at the very least testing when someone has ANY flu-like symptoms, not having to wait until you have practically ALL the symptoms, which seems to be the criteria to be able to be tested now.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 4:24 pm**

SAMBA wrote: ↑Apr 10 2020 3:55 pm @nonot
Would you knowingly put yourself in close proximity to someone who you know has tested positive to the COVID-19? Would your answer change if you didn't know he had tested positive? Testing would allow you to make an informed choice.

If someone tests positive and is out and about spreading it around, that's their choice. And I have no idea the life history of everyone I pass by, so even if they had been tested, I have no idea whether their test passed or failed. Besides, COVID is transferred via symptomless carriers, people who would never be tested, who are infected.

I just assume everyone has it, and take appropriate precautions.

If I feel ill, I don't go into work and spread it around to my coworkers, nor into stores and spread it around to other shoppers. That's my choice. I don't need a test to tell me how to practice hygiene, nor how to behave in a responsible way with respect to spreading illness.

If I had housemates/children/etc such that when I start coughing, it would become useful to know whether I would spread a cold vs coronavirus to those living in the same house as myself, I can see the value in testing with respect to that. But for random people on the street? Just like most things, I generally observe, and expect, most people to behave irresponsibly, and can be pleasantly surprised when the opposite occurs.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 4:36 pm**

nonot wrote: you had me at cocktail

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 4:49 pm**

Nice quick read...

https://americanhiking.org/blog/hiking- ... -covid-19/

Do I have to stick within my own neighborhood for a hike/walk/run?
'.....Not only does crowding make it impossible to follow social distancing, but it puts extra wear and tear on trails and other park infrastructure at a time when volunteer crews cannot be operating. Remember, trails don’t magically appear and stay hikable -- that requires a lot of human labor (mostly from volunteers). '

Can I just go escape to a small town somewhere near my favorite hiking spots?
'...Definitely not. It is not possible to practice social distancing if you travel. ..... Besides, small towns cannot absorb and deal with an outbreak the way that larger population centers can -- you’d be negligently endangering their lives and their fragile economy -- and many of these towns might be under quarantine already.'

What about visiting National Parks, National Monuments, Wildlife Preserves, State Parks, trails, etc.?
....'If you live in a rural area, you might have abundant access to open space and trails. In that case, if the park or trail you want to use is open, not crowded, and within a quick drive of your home (so that you don’t have to stop for gas, restroom breaks, supplies, etc.), then, yes, visiting such places for a day hike is fine as long as you practice strict social distancing and are following the guidelines of your local government and the federal, state, or local land manager. However, right now, we can’t risk diverting emergency medical care to wilderness injuries, so we urge that you only take an easy day hike in the front country '

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 4:53 pm**

nonot wrote:Besides, COVID is transferred via symptomless carriers, people who would never be tested, who are infected.

And also:

nonot wrote:If I feel ill, I don't go into work and spread it around to my coworkers, nor into stores and spread it around to other shoppers. That's my choice. I don't need a test to tell me how to practice hygiene, nor how to behave in a responsible way with respect to spreading illness.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 5:14 pm**

@nonot

nonot wrote:If someone tests positive and is out and about spreading it around, that's their choice.

But I assume it would be your choice to avoid him if you knew?

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 5:18 pm**

nonot wrote:COVID is transferred via symptomless carriers

And the rest of your post talks about people who feel ill or are showing symptoms being responsible or whatever. These things don't work together.

CannondaleKid wrote:We should be following the model of South Korea

You don't have to be very strongly opposed to government intervention to know that the US is not going to force it's whole population to install software on their phones that tracks them, their medical history, and and also shares that information with everybody they've been in contact with.

While Apple and Google are in fact developing exactly that for this market, and some will volunteer to install it, I think it's safe to say that it will be impossible for us to follow the model of South Korea. And that's probably a good thing.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 5:20 pm**

@nonot

nonot wrote:And I have no idea the life history of everyone I pass by, so even if they had been tested, I have no idea whether their test passed or failed. Besides, COVID is transferred via symptomless carriers, people who would never be tested, who are infected.

Ergo, the rationale for "self-distancing".

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 5:23 pm**

@nonot

nonot wrote:If I feel ill, I don't go into work and spread it around to my coworkers, nor into stores and spread it around to other shoppers.

Ever heard of Typhoid Mary?

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 5:25 pm**

Also this cool report that says you shouldn't hike behind people and riding a bike you shouldn't be within 60 feet of another rider! So social distancing has a whole different thing now!
https://medium.com/@jurgenthoelen/belgi ... df19c77d08

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 6:18 pm**

chumley wrote:I think it's safe to say that it will be impossible for us to follow the model of South Korea. And that's probably a good thing

I hear you and agree the most draconian steps would not work here but one way or another we DO need more testing.

I also agree we should not be FORCED into it.
However, I still feel drive-through testing (or something similar) should be AVAILABLE for ALL upon request whether symptomatic or not.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 6:52 pm**

I look forward to the antibody testing if it is fast and simple, which is what some are touting right now. If I hear one more " I had this weird flu like illness earlier this year, I bet it was the coronavirus because my MD said it wasn't the regular flu" I think I'll just wear ear plugs. That will hopefully free up some of the population as to travel, work etc.
In the past I worked with clients with HIV, Hepatitis, MRSA, open wounds, etc. I find some of this to be such absolute hysteria that a huge dose of common sense and being informed would alleviate. Question all authority and that's not to be paranoid; it's just information will change very quickly depending on RELIABLE research. Most pressing question? When will Joe lock this thread?

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 7:45 pm**

SAMBA wrote: ↑Apr 10 2020 5:20 pm @nonot
nonot wrote:And I have no idea the life history of everyone I pass by, so even if they had been tested, I have no idea whether their test passed or failed. Besides, COVID is transferred via symptomless carriers, people who would never be tested, who are infected.
Ergo, the rationale for "self-distancing".

Yes, I think testing is valuable for helping to promote from social distancing into a full quarantine, in case people hadn't realized its a thing. Perhaps you misunderstood my previous post, I was never saying testing wasn't valuable, I was only stating is has no effect on the death rate percentage...if social distancing is practiced.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 7:47 pm**

@SAMBA

So what's your proposal then? Anyone who doesn't feel ill is forced to undergo mandatory testing...how often? Once a week? Who will pay and organize for 1 billion tests a month in this country? Can you imagine the disruption and the lines? I have to renew my state ID perhaps every 15 years and it takes perhaps 2 hours to get my photo taken and wait for a printer.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 7:53 pm**

chumley wrote: ↑Apr 10 2020 5:18 pm
nonot wrote:COVID is transferred via symptomless carriers
And the rest of your post talks about people who feel ill or are showing symptoms being responsible or whatever. These things don't work together.

This sentence was an attempt to show the hypocracy where testing is being proposed as some sort of panacea. Healthy people don't get tested. Healthy people can carry the disease. Sorry you couldn't follow, but nobody reads a post more than 3 sentences long anyway.

If you can recall the countries in which people practice wearing face masks when sick BEFORE coronavirus, vs not wearing them when healthy, you will find these to be east asian countries in general....hmmm, a culture in which sick people act responsibly out of concern for others....could never happen here. Hmm, it seems to help prevent disease spread...nah, it's all due to the testing...yes, that's the answer.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 8:03 pm**

I know you all love to hear from me, so here is my experience with testing - or the lack thereof - and why I believe it is important.
I have been symptomatic for close to a week, with pretty much all of the symptoms except shortness of breath (thank goodness). I have tried three different ways to get tested - through my primary care provider, through Banner Healthcare, and through ADHS ... I still can't get tested. My pcp said I would have to have a fever over 101 - mine has hovered around 100 for the past five days. Banner and ADHS also said I wasn't "sick enough" or "high risk" enough to qualify for testing at this time.
So I've been isolating myself at home, and taking care of myself ... no problem there - and I am certainly glad that my symptoms have only been mild to moderate.
BUT what about the fact that if I do have it, I almost certainly exposed some of my co-workers before I became ill? If I were able to get tested and it came back positive, then obviously they would all have to self-quarantine ... but since I am unable to get a test to confirm it, they are all still working and potentially exposing each other and dozens - or hundreds - of other people ... and that is how the virus is spreading.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 8:24 pm**

nonot wrote:a culture in which sick people act responsibly out of concern for others

Said culture must have abdicated their concerned responsibility in January for some reason!

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 8:29 pm**

@cactuscat
That is exactly why widespread testing is needed.

Posted: **Apr 10 2020 10:54 pm**

The test for antibodies will be the difference maker when or if that gets readily available. Then yer teflon and can't carry. Article today I believe quotes Fauci as saying that's 2-3 weeks away.

Posted: **Apr 11 2020 1:56 pm**

Apparently 80% of NY folks on ventilators DIE on them. When I vetted that stat, I thought that 20% effectiveness is not much of a solution; especially after all the hub-bub about needing MORE of them. And that nearly 50% of the surviving 20% may not make it through the year.
If factual, the following paper may help explain some of the foibles of our early (and maybe contemporary) treatment(s) .
Disclaimer for the hair-triggers... I do not even play a doctor on TV.
www.shorturl.at/hkAB3

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