HikeArizona.COM

Hello.

This coming May I am planning a multi-day trip in the Blue Range Primitive Area and wanted to see if I could get people with experience of the eastern side of the area to weigh in on my link-up idea.

I am seeing on various maps a trail simply called Trail #541. This route branches off from the Blue River and follows Little Blue Creek allowing access to Hannah Creek Hot Spring & Dutch Blue Creek Narrows near the Whiterocks Cabin. All trip reports from HAZ that I could find have most people doing a base camping type adventure where they setup near the cabin and then explore the Dutch Blue narrows; there is clearly an overland bypass they have mentioned that links for a short lasso loop.

That looks really cool, but I am trying to figure out a way to link that route as part of a much longer 7-9 day trip that uses KP Creek as an entry to the Blue River, following that downstream south, then turn northeast and follow the Little Blue Creek, eventually meeting back up with the Blue River and returning on Grant Creek - passing through the extreme east end of the Blue Range on the far part of the loop.

On various maps, this Trail #541 appears to leave the Dutch Blue drainage and climb into the foothills of the Bear Mountain / Whiterocks Mountain complex just west of the NM border. Normally what I do is pixel peep satellite photos (google earth), to try and determine how bad the route finding might be. I can see no discernable trail once you go north of Dutch Blue Creek. It appears to be an overland route-finding type of thing.

I am totally fine doing that type of hiking. But I'd just like to know if anyone here has attempted to link the upper part of Dutch Blue Canyon with the areas just north of there (Winter Cabin Spring and Corral). And please share your experience if you've done so.

Hopefully this post is detailed enough to figure out what I'm asking... Here is kind of the area I'm talking about. Notice the only posted recorded GPX route on HAZ stops at the Dutch Blue narrows and loops back.
[ custom map :: map ]

EDIT: To elaborate - I think this Trail #541 is also known as Little Dutch Blue Trail. I am most concerned with where it goes north of Ash Creek. It looks like the foothills are some kind of white slick-rock (think Escalante/Boulder Utah) or similar. I think that's why I see no trail in the sat photos. So... that's kind of the area. Again any experience over there linking up with the trail network just north of there is much appreciated!

Thanks!

I was finally able to talk to someone at the Alpine station today. I am cautiously optimistic they do have an eye towards improving the trails out there, however, I was a little disheartened to learn that it is against the rule for private parties to clear the trail, even with hand tools.

I have attached a map of what they cleared last year. It’s pretty self explanatory and promising. I agree with their assessments of Foote Creek being impassable after P-Bar Lake and Long C Trail being deemed impassable as well. Long Cienega is one of the final two or three trails that I have not done out there and I am dreading it. The map is consistent with my earlier post regarding what area I think they should focus on, so that is promising. Clearing Grant Creek and the shortcut Trail should be done every year IMO. Their map also provides an interesting snap shot of trail maintenance in that area last year.

Katie and I got a dog sitter and are heading out there for a 5 day backpack next week. I hope to incorporate some of these newly cleared trails into our itinerary. In particular, I want to see that upper portion of Steeple and the KP Rim Trail.

@friendofThundergod
Looks like Steeple Creek route is decent to the blue river and back? I see it on yours but not noted as cleared on the the recent cleared USFS map... Assuming they've erased the white-board of sections already cleared in years past or something. As long as it's not a painfully slow bushwhack I can hack it.

It's looking like a good option is to head down from Hannagan Meadow along Grant.
Then connect with the river, follow river/FR 281 south.
Head back up via Steeple.
Looks like a comfortable 3 day or long 2 day trip.
Already aware of private parcels in the river zone so will avoid camping near them.

Then will use that as a corridor for deeper exploration following the blue river shortly after monsoon is over.
Weather/foliage, I'm guessing rim-like ponderosa forest at the top & warm P/J transition zone-ish in the basin (?)

Thanks again.

@wildwesthikes

They cleared the top of Steeple, which is pretty scenic and nice. The lower portions and the section across KP Mesa will be fine. That is a highway with a burnt forest around it. [ photo ]

Upper portion of Steeple
[ photo ]

Also if you take a look at the key on the map, they used a system of high lights to signify trails cleared going back to 2017. Take a close look at key.

In regards to camping along the Blue, yes there is some private property, however, I just DL camped near the Blue Box. I am not sure if it was private property, but it was a concealed location and no signs to indicate no camping.

We are doing a 55 ish mile five day loop. Down Grant, up Largo, past Dutch Oven, Bear Mountain, Bear Valley, Gov. Mesa to Blue, up Blue to Steeple, across moonshine park back to Grant..

@friendofThundergod
Yeah looks totally fine to me. Very similar to the Gila Wilderness.

Enjoy your trip!

@wildwesthikes
So I can confirm Steeple will be good to intersection with KP Rim and good from river up to intersection with KP Trail #70. I just can´t account for that middle portion, which is not too many miles, but could be completely obliterated too. We may commit to that section as a finish, so will have info on entire length of trail, if we do that. I will let you know.

friendofThundergod wrote:I was a little disheartened to learn that it is against the rule for private parties to clear the trail, even with hand tools.

Did they happen to clarify which "rule" prohibits this? I would think that if the government refuses to do maintenance they cannot prohibit citizens from picking up their slack...

@nonot
There's probably some kind of liability issue. Also, there is a right way and a wrong way to do trail maintenance (ask @sredfield!). I know in Sedona they have cited/prosecuted people who have constructed new trails. I don't know what the law that was in violation of, but it might be the same one that applies for maintenance work.

chumley wrote: ↑May 14 2020 10:03 am @nonot
There's probably some kind of liability issue. Also, there is a right way and a wrong way to do trail maintenance (ask @sredfield!). I know in Sedona they have cited/prosecuted people who have constructed new trails. I don't know what the law that was in violation of, but it might be the same one that applies for maintenance work.

I would be interested in even one hypothetical example of how it is even possible to do trail maintenance "wrong". I have also sent Shaun a message asking him that per your suggestion.

@nonot
A very quick lmgtfy came up with this one. I suspect there are a few others.
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/ ... 6dpi72.pdf

@nonot
It's covered under 36 CFR § 261.10 - Occupancy and use.

nonot wrote:I would think that if the government refuses to do maintenance they cannot prohibit citizens from picking up their slack...

I believe that would fall under the, "if they're not doing maintenance, then there also won't be anyone official out there to catch you" clause that I made up just now.

I am still not entirely sure he knew I meant with hand tools and not a chainsaw, but the ranger said it disrupts the natural setting, or something to that extent. He said he knows the downfall can get annoying, but said to just be patient with their trail clearing crews.

I can´t imagine an informal clearing or trimming back of a trail in spots is going to attract too much attention, but I guess some sort of organized group doing it on their own is probably going to be frowned upon, walking by a ranger with an assortment of saws, picks and axes probably not a good idea either...

@chumley
This is mostly a guide for trail construction, and even within the first few pages, it even says there isn't a wrong way to do it, but that there may be better techniques you can use. The only significant discussion on maintenance is how far to clear the trail of brush past the edge of the trail, and that there is no rule for this distance. There is some discussion on trail tread restoral that goes beyond what I consider maintenance, into restoral, but I could see some lumping it under the term mainteannce.

The rest is just warnings not to chop off your foot using an axe and the assorted safety recommendations.

I still see no example of a "wrong way" to do maintenance.

@wildwesthikes
Thanks for the reference. However, the rule says it illegal to do without a special-authorization. As I understand it, FOTG went to request such an authorization. Yet he was denied with a statement that citizens are not allowed to do trail maintenance.

So perhaps the ranger didn't understand he was requesting the authorization to do trail maintenance, or else FOTG wasn't clear he was requesting one. It seems perfectly legal for any hiker on HAZ to do trail maintenance once they obtain authorization from the Forest Service.

Well there are clear guidelines for trimming brush. For example, don't just trim to the width of the trail, but instead trim back to the trunk, or remove the encroaching brush altogether. Would it hurt if you went in with clippers and made the equivalent of a hedge-trimmer cut on either side of the trail? Probably not. But somebody else will have to go back and do it right sometime again.

It also suggests that when resources are scarce and you can only put a little bit of effort in to make sure you trim on the uphill side of a trail. This seems to be something that if somebody does it "wrong" could encourage travel on the downhill side of a trail, thereby eroding the tread and subsequently damaging, or destroying the trail over time.

I think many experienced hikers that visit Arizona's lesser used trails have carried clippers and done some light maintenance along the way (I sure have). But I have also learned that I've trimmed in ways that will just cause more growth for the next year, in ways that are not aesthetically pleasing, and I have redirected the path through a less-overgrown area that deviates from actual tread with results that I'm not qualified to understand the effects of. And that's with nothing bigger than a set of loppers!

There's a fine line somewhere in there. I'm not sure where it is, but I'm sure I've crossed it before. I don't think knowing more about trail maintenance before heading out there is bad thing.

Perhaps instead of saying there might be a "wrong" way to do it I should have said there are established "best practices" for maintenance that one should learn and follow if they are going to try to help out on their own.

People trim all the time and they even mention that they do it. Just sayin'.....
With that said, I imagine that if there is an "organization" or "club" that wants to do trail maintenance, the FS would most likely approve it. I know of at least a couple of "Clubs" that go out and maintain stuff in the Supes and since it's well publicized, I'm sure that the FS is aware of it. The FS gave us permission to go out and do Graffiti Clean-Up, so I'm sure they would feel the same about maintenance, if someone was to go through the proper channels and make it an event type thing for a group.

outdoor_lover wrote: ↑May 14 2020 1:09 pm P I imagine that if there is an "organization" or "club" that wants to do trail maintenance, the FS would most likely approve it. I know of at least a couple of "Clubs" that go out and maintain stuff in the Supes and since it's well publicized, I'm sure that the FS is aware of it.

There is a board(or at least there used to be a board) at both the First Water and Peralta TH's that listed the names of the trails and the hiking clubs/groups that had volunteered to maintain the trails. Back in 2016 I volunteered to help a hiking meetup group maintain a trail (the Dutchman Trail I think) at the Peralta TH. The forest service provided loppers and saws

Back in the 80's I would visit the Mesa office and show them pictures I had taken of illegal prospecting/mining in the Sups. I was never turned down for a revisit of the sites to clean it up. I mostly did this solo but occasionally would take a small group of Scouts to help me. No paper work was involved including the work we did on the Reavis ranch house after the fire. We shoveled out the interior which consisted of ash, sand (from the plastered walls), nails, electrical wiring, plumbing, metal ceiling tiles and the metal roof which was two layers thick offset with 2 by 10's. You could walk in the building and still see the standing walls and fireplace. Of course in those days the U.S. Forest Service was staffed by old timers that had common sense and a good relationship with the community. Now days they are all young kids that went to college and had their brains filled with save the world crap. May God help us.....

Since someone asked.

The liability is a huge issue, there are policies and procedures to follow, none of which are convenient and most that seem like overkill, but all created for reasons, mostly because the FS is seen as the deep pockets to sue over anything. Drop a tree on someone—there’s a Ranger District’s budget for a year, not to mention the staff time that will be devoted to it for years. Bury an axe in your leg, big time lawsuit—the FS didn’t warn/train/rescue me. And it doesn’t have to be you bringing the lawsuit, more than likely it would be your insurance company when the medical costs rise.

Remember that the staff people don’t know you from the rest of the newbies out there now. Spend some time with them, show up on their volunteer events, build the relationship, then seek permission to go it alone. They desperately need the help, but they must be cautious. All that takes time, and a lot of relationship building. Working folks probably don’t have the time for this.

But I often think of what someone from Volunteers for Outdoor AZ said about volunteering-“Do you want to be part of the audience or part of the cast?” There are huge opportunities to really change up your involvement in the outdoors and public lands, but it’s a process.

And there is indeed the right way, ok way and wrong way to do most anything, trail maintenance included. Brush trimming has been covered—one thing we see is people cutting the tips off brush and leaving it in the trail. No big deal until someone trips over it. Another is leaving a stub sticking up because they don’t bend down to cut it at the fork or ground level. This is ugly and a danger if someone falls on it.

My pet peeve-tiny drains! Well-meaning folks take picks and McLeods out and dig a ditch across the trail, maybe a few inches wide, thinking this will drain the water off. It won’t last beyond the first couple rains. Drains should extend along the trail for 10-12 feet, the bottom of them should be at least a foot below the downhill side, should extend diagonally across the whole width of the trail, and be a smooth transition when traveled linearly along the trail. This takes a bunch of work, no less than 30 minutes in soft soil, longer when things are dry, rocky or packed.

It takes several days of formal training to be authorized to run a saw—chain saw or cross cut--on the forest for trail work. I believe this applies to anything over 4 inches diameter. A big part of that training is instilling or acquiring a safety sense. We’ve cut some huge logs that could have killed someone if they got loose.

I know and work with many dedicated FS and BLM staff; I have seldom gotten the sense that there is a “conspiracy” or “agenda” to limit, cover up, or influence anything. Most are as frustrated by the bureaucracy as the rest of us. They are trying to do their job despite it, with shrinking resources, and most do great work. Case in point: today State Parks approved $214k for trail work in the Payson Ranger District, the culmination of well over three year’s of bureaucratic processes. The bad news—this will address a drop in the bucket of the pent-up need for maintenance and development work that the trails need.

Like most things government, public land management is complicated-anyone who boils it down to a sound bite doesn’t understand.

$.02

After another trip to the Blue Range, I can say the trail situation is much better than my post several weeks ago. In fact, the FS has been pretty busy out there and it is evident. As reported earlier in an earlier triplog, the trail to Blue Peak is now clear and kind of a pleasant hike now. KP rim was definitely cleared recently, Steeple and the trailheads have been updated with new signage and informative boards. I encountered similar promising conditions on all of the trails I hiked during a 65 mile backpack [ photoset ] there at the end of May. There is still a lot of work to be done and I would like to see even more trails cleared of course, but I do think the FS has made some great progress on the trails out there recently. I am also continually amazed at the immaculate condition of the trailhead restrooms FWIW.