the "barren wastes"

[desert spirit]

Don't you just chuckle when people back East (or wherever) think that's all Arizona is?

[PaleoRob]

A 27% cut is better than a 100% cut.

Maybe. There is some cut-off point where we are unable to do our job, and that point is above a 100% cut. I hope it isn't 27%, but the high-up mucky-mucks are trying to figure out what to do.

[Jeffshadows]

I am interested in how this is going to affect wildlands recreation. The National Park Service, National Forest Service, and BLM have been operating with less-than-adequate funding for years now, and it's going to get even rougher. The AZ Game & Fish Dept. probably isn't in much better shape, but at least its funding is *somewhat* commeasurate with useage. Get ready to see trailheads with overflowing trashcans, and I hope that's the least of our worries.

"We" (meaning the condor project) lost about 27% of our budget last week, due to a cut in federal funding, so it is already starting...
What kind of stimulus package is that, huh?!

One unexpected thing that Dubya did was increase the funding to NPS, actually...

[writelots]

I think that it's interesting that we went from discussing how outsiders see Arizona, and ended up with talking about how we see our own state. Outsiders see a "barren wasteland", devoid of trees, water and shrubbery - all of the amenities they associate with life. We know that life is plentiful and diverse here - whether in our beloved Sonoran deserts or our lush mountain tops. What we as Arizonans sometimes see as a waste land is the political and cultural landscape - where Universities are seen as unnecessary and troublesome burdens, school children are left on their own to figure out their abc's, and natural open space only has real value until someone offers us a few bucks to tear out that desert an put up a bunch of snowbird houses and parkinglots. So much for progress meaning we're moving forward...

Or is that just me? Perhaps - you can certainly disagree if you want. My family has been in Arizona for five generations - an my cousin is working on the 6th. I feel like the desert has gotten into my DNA, but the "every man for himself" political climate has never managed to permeate.

[Jeffshadows]

I actually agree with most of what you're saying. I'm also a native with almost six generations on one side here in AZ and two on the other. My family was active in politics before the advent of air conditioning changed the AZ landscape, completely.

The issues with our local schools are tied to an issue with our local heritage. I could not stay here in Tucson if the U of A didn't exist; this is probably the case for many young Tucsonans. However, most of my troublesome coed neighbors and the coeds with whom I seem to have the most negative encounters are from out-of-state or Phoenix (Especially Scottsdale.) Growing up here I was taught to respect and explore the Hispanic and American Indian cultures and the members of those cultures I coexisted with. I was also taught to marvel at the wonders of the desert, the sky islands, and the lands between. Most of the people who move here or come here for school despise those very things, or see them as something to be exploited.

I'll give you an example. Watch how fast I get flamed for saying this: All schoolchildren in Arizona should be required to start learning conversational Spanish alongside English starting in 2nd grade. ;)

[JoelHazelton]

All schoolchildren in Arizona should be required to start learning conversational Spanish alongside English starting in 2nd grade. ;)

I completely agree.

[dysfunction]

Ok, but then by the same token it should be recognized that failure to learn English only relegates one to menial employment. Of course, I'm jaded by being a 2nd generation American whose ancestors came here and refused to speak anything but English, and by having lived overseas and learned the local language.

[Jeffshadows]

Absolutely, I'm not advocating letting newcomers who plan on staying here get out of mastering a meaningful level of English comprehension.

[Jim]

All schoolchildren in Arizona should be required to start learning conversational Spanish alongside English starting in 2nd grade. ;)

I completely agree.

Not practical. Given that so many students move around (in and out of the state) it wouldn't be practical unless it was a national program.

[Jeffshadows]

All schoolchildren in Arizona should be required to start learning conversational Spanish alongside English starting in 2nd grade. ;)

I completely agree.

Not practical. Given that so many students move around (in and out of the state) it wouldn't be practical unless it was a national program.

True, but they could get some while they're here ;)

[chumley]

All schoolchildren in Arizona should be required to start learning conversational Spanish alongside English starting in 2nd grade. ;)

I think our schools should start by teaching children how to speak one language well before starting on another language. So far, its clear that we don't do a good job with basic English! The next resources should be spent on increasing math and science education or else we had all better brush up on our far-eastern and pacific languages before we worry about kids learning Spanish.

[te_wa]

I'll learn Spanish if I move to Spain
until then, no reason to learn Spanish to enable foreigners from a third world countrie(s) to work live and play on my nickel
USA's language is English. Learn it.

but to get on topic, yes I hope everyone lives as far from arizona as they can. if people in Illinois think arizona is all sand and heat let em. they can have their cornfields and snow.

"welcome to arizona, now go home"

*for the record, Ive lived here since 1978 and have met less than 1 dozen natives

[azbackpackr]

Learning a language actually increases mental capacity, much as learning a musical instrument does. Very young kids can actually learn several languages at once and not get them mixed up!

People who think we study Spanish so we can speak to "third world immigrants who won't learn English" are totally missing the point. Learn Spanish (or French, Japanese, Swahili, etc.) because it is really fun and will open up a whole new world to you!

As for meeting AZ natives, I meet them everywhere. Most of Yuma's year-round population, for example, are Yuma natives. Of course, the rest of Arizona doesn't claim Yuma. ;)

[te_wa]

who's "we"
do you speak for everyone?



I have no problem with increasing my brain activity, its a "muscle" i use frequently - and if you think im missing my own point then maybe you should talk to all the illegals who i know that have been here for several years - and a majority of them - a vast majority of them, say that mexicans refuse to learn english because they think it is an "inferior language"
I worked construction for over 17 years. Heard of La Raza?
I hope that the construction industries are the only place that racist mexicans work, but im not so sure that is the case.
Do you think there is no agenda behind teaching american kids spanish? I would wonder...
Do you think there is a reason between fighting some people 'over there' but staunchly ignoring the weapons, drugs and people that are coming here to send 19billion (yes, billion with a "b") american dollars to mexico every year? how much of those dollars are being spent on american products? how is the money being replaced? is it fiat money? is it possibly harming our economy?
so my position is this: i will not learn spanish and niether will my children if it is going to be used to converse with someone who refuses to learn our country's national language: english - if you know it, speak it. if you dont, be gone

now, off my soapbox

[JoelHazelton]

maybe you should talk to all the illegals who i know that have been here for several years - and a majority of them - a vast majority of them, say that mexicans refuse to learn english because they think it is an "inferior language"

You honestly believe that? If they thought our language was somehow "better" than they would take the time to learn it? There's no way. They don't learn it because they're too lazy and they don't have to. Don't take that the wrong way; I'm not generalizing an entire race of people as being lazy. I'm saying that people, no matter where they're from, are lazy if given the opportunity. If I lived in a foreign country and everything was in English, I would also have a hard time finding the motivation to learn the native language. But Mexican immigrants are definitely consumers, and companies know that, so they do what they need to appeal to that large demographic, which is putting stuff in Spanish as well as English. I say if somebody has a big problem with it, they should go after the enablers rather than the Spanish speakers.

[JimmyLyding]

We now live in a global economy. Some people will adapt, and others will not.
I try to improve my espanol on a frequent basis because I realize that I can make money doing business with people who speak Spanish. It has nothing to do with culture, lack of linguistic pride, or a desire to accomodate those who do not speak- or write English as well as I do. If I cannot relate to my Mexican customers then some other vendor will. I'd rather be happy than right.
English is a very difficult language for an adult to learn because it breaks so many of its own "rules," and it is a combination of a number of different tongues. Our Latin American neighbors who've come here, and learned English, are much better off than those who have not.
I know that most Americans will welcome young and eager immigrant labor once the crisis of a graying population hits here as it has in Europe and Japan.
Back to Martin Denny and uploading...

[te_wa]

I know that most Americans will welcome young and eager immigrant labor once the crisis of a graying population hits here as it has in Europe and Japan.

hey Jim, that reminds me of something... google "operation wetback"

[JimmyLyding]

I know all about "operation wetback." We basically have the same thing now except for it's part of the "informal" economy. We need immigrant labor for certain things because of our industrialized economy (everything from agriculture to restaurants to hospitality), and I think it's better to have that immigrant labor pay taxes and be known to the authorities just like those of us who are legal citizens.

[big_load]

It looks like this thread is going to spin off a Spanish thread to go with the Speed Camera thread.

[writelots]

Man. tough crowd.