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Was up at the Tonto Narrows (again) and am very sorry to report that the clean up did not take. The place was FILTHY. I had hoped to go up to the 2block long narrow canyon, but due to a less than adventurous friend only went to the first waterfall. The one good thing is that if you leave the narrows, you dont have to do too far before most signs of humans disappear. On a bank, I did find some sunscreen and a powerbar that were in ziplocks. I recovered them if someone would like to claim them.
Maybe someday things will change.
Hope everyone had a great weekend.
-Pete

pfredricks wrote:Was up at the Tonto Narrows (again) and am very sorry to report that the clean up did not take. The place was FILTHY.

I am sorry to hear the above report. And yet, I am not surprised. I remember following the the "what would you do?" string, the idea to clean up :idea: and the actions of HAZ members to make it happen. :rollH: The clean-up was a small band-aid. To maintain it is a bit more challenging in a use it, toss it, lazy, inconsiderate society that is geared up for that. Prehaps I am a bit harsh; ten percent of the society.

Yeah I was up there on Saturday as well, it is a TERRIBLE shame how that first section of the Narrows looks. Beverage containers everywhere, old styrofoam coolers, socks, old grungy towels, it really made me ill.

As we were hiking out we saw many teenagers on there way in with more garbage to dispose of in this beautiful wilderness. We even saw one brain dead idiot rolling a full sized cooler back there, which after he sees how hard it will be to carry or wheel out, will probably end up in Tonto creek.

I really don't understand how ignorant and thoughtless some people can be. I HATE teenagers, at least the ones with no wilderness ethics (Which seems to be most of them), here's hoping Karma will sneak around and SLAM them for the environmental damage they've done, Jerks!

I think maybe even some signs telling people to remove their waste and garbage would be appropriate, as I'd rather look at a few of those than mounds of garbage.

Paul

Ya know, that really irks me. The area was pretty tidy when we were done with the Narrows cleanup. Funny, as I was walking out onto the main road to the lot I saw two verry young looking guys carrying a huge cooler into the narrows. I asked them to pack that stuff back out when done and that I was part of a cleanup group. They said "it's about time" right back. No "thank you"... no "good job"... really got my adrenaline going for a sec. They're still young I guess.

In addition, one of the nearby rancher-ladies almost planted gravel in our foreheads when she peeled away from the main gate in her dually while we were lounging after the day. She must have gathered we were among the group of "punks" resonsible for trashing the land. I can see her frustration, but don't judge.

Looks like maybe we will have to make it there a couple of times a year. I'm game.

A bi-annual HAZ Tonto narrows Cleanup?

Probably still not enough, but hey Im game.

We should look into doing some other areas also. Theres always enough trash to go around.

In response to what HikerInGilbert said: I saw two very young looking guys carrying a huge cooler into the narrows. I asked them to pack that stuff back out when done and that I was part of a cleanup group. They said "it's about time" right back. No "thank you"... no "good job"... really got my adrenaline going for a sec. They're still young I guess.



It sounds like young people are the main culprits of trashing this place. They are young and only thinking about their temporary "good time" and probably when you asked those young man to carry out their mess, and that you were part of a clean up effort, they probably thought "good, it's about time someone came up here to clean up after us" Sad.

pixelfrog wrote: I HATE teenagers, at least the ones with no wilderness ethics (Which seems to be most of them), here's hoping Karma will sneak around and SLAM them for the environmental damage they've done, Jerks!

Don't hold back now...tell us how you really feel.

(although general agreement is definitely present on this end)

Don't hold back now

oh that felt good

thx olesma and good to hear from you pixelfrog!

Who can forget the bomb pixelfrog dropped last year "Scary NRA Militia types"
man somebody needs to get paul a radio show, this stuff is too good

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I can't help but feel for the locals

What more can they do other then close it off?

You can clean until your blue in the face. Education is really what's needed here, but can you really get through to the culprits?

The long access is now becoming more and more apparent. You almost wanna make it longer. Then I suppose it would get defeated by those upset.

Maybe release a high number of pack wolfs in the area?

In response to pixelfrog's reply:

I read your "filthy" review of the Tonto Narrows, very disappointing. Do you have any recommendations for a good day hike that includes water that has been less abused? I'm taking a friend who hasn't explored Arizona yet, and would like them to see the beauty without the mess. . .
Thanks for your time. Sophia [phoenix]

I don't think signs or education will deter the litterers. The best way to get through to them is with fines. The appropriate powers that be (rangers, deputies, whoever) should spend one or two weekends a month giving out large tickets for littering. Combine that with one sign at the parking area that mentions the fine. If ranger time is too valuable, I'd love to spend a day lounging at the narrows and then calling in when I see folks trashing it. :twisted: I wonder if they would go for such a volunteer program? :

Ha ha, well maybe the Karma thing was a bit harsh but damn that type of thing really ticks me off! It is so easy to remove your trash that I just want to smack around the people that don't...Doh there I go again he he. :twisted: (only kidding)

From a very early age my dad taught me that littering is wrong, I remember him yelling at me for throwing a gum wrapper in my back yard in the burbs. I think unfortunately alot of kids and other stupid people (there are idiotic adults to, stupidity has no age limits) never had anyone telling them how moronic it is to do these things, so Joe is absolutely correct, it just comes down to Education, cleaning is only a temporary solution.

Another alternative for you woopitup could be Arivaipa Canyon, although you have to get a permit, which may be hard to do now, and don't forget we are fast approaching Monsoon season so many of these canyon will be too dangerous to hike. Also check out a few of the canyons in the Sedona area.

That NRA/gun thread was the bomb ha ha!

Paul

Agreed azhiker96, fines would probably help a bit and I'd love to report some of those violaters as well.

The Hellsgate Wilderness is under Tonto National Forest juristication if I'm correct so maybe we can contact them and see what types of options are available. I'd even be willing to donate a little cash to pay for a sign or two.

P

I was at the Narrows Sunday June 29. On our way in (9:30am) we saw a ranger hiking around the Narrows, I don't know what his mission was that day, but it did look like he was equipped to write tickets.
His truck was parked in the lot.

Another note:
The people I rode out with got a flat. along with two other vehicles. this was NOT vandalism. Lots of sharp rocks are in the parking area, so be careful.

Kenny

pixelfrog wrote:Agreed azhiker96, fines would probably help a bit and I'd love to report some of those violaters as well.

The Hellsgate Wilderness is under Tonto National Forest juristication if I'm correct so maybe we can contact them and see what types of options are available. I'd even be willing to donate a little cash to pay for a sign or two.

P

Taking up on the line of thought that pixelfrog had....Wondering if HAZ (via member collections) could fund some signs. Good way to get HAZ name out as well as do something about issues that matter to this community!

Don't know if this action would cause a bunch of overhead (red tape!) that may make this too much of a hassle.

joe bartels wrote:Who can forget the bomb pixelfrog dropped last year "Scary NRA Militia types"
man somebody needs to get paul a radio show, this stuff is too good

No doubt. That thread went on for, what, 20+ pages? That was one darned fine discussion that really raised some hackles.

This one isn't nearly controversial enough - we all hate folks who litter - the only controversy is whether to shoot them on sight (the "neo-conservative" approach), fund a government sponsored education program for them (the "liberal" approach) or to accept their behavior as culturally imposed and reach out to them in understanding while funding a massive government project to follow after them and clean up the mess - provided it isn't left there for some deeper religious/cultural significance wherein we would leave it alone and figure something else out that tries to make everybody happy (the "bleeding-heart/PC" approach).

C'mon Pixelfrog - cut loose a little and give us some meat to chew on!

Educating the kids is a great idea. If the rangers could go to the local high schools with a slide program showing how the beauty of the wilderness can be maintained through a little concientious self regulation, there might be a beneficial impact. If the young people of the community were encouraged through the active participation of the more mature members of the community, to hold the pristine wilderness in high regard, a great legacy would be created. Schools, church groups, clubs and media need to be targetted by folk like us and the rangers to help create an atmosphere of cooperation and responsibility.

I remember there was a topic here last year on this. It was about littering in general. I believe it led into many other things such as how we are raising our children. I believe that is the jest of it here. People, society have gotten lazy when it comes to teaching our children values, responsibilty. When a good deal of us were raised we were taught accountability. It seems when children are talked to about being responsible, accountable, the response is a big blank. We cannot expect from our children what we are not teaching.

Back east we used to go mountain bike riding in this area called Kettle Morraine...very heavily used area, best in the midwest...well you needed a permit to ride the trails...$5 for the day...but it was an honor system thing, no ranger, just pay at the sign, put your permit in your pack, and off you go...well as a college kid, we never paid, cause there was never a reason too...noone ever checked....however, one sunny Saturday we came around the bend at the midpoint of the trail and were surprised to see a ranger jeep...we were even more surprised when we were asked for our permits...we each got a fine, something like $150 ...you can bet we bought permits ever time after that...

Pixelfrog said
"From a very early age my dad taught me that littering is wrong, I remember him yelling at me for throwing a gum wrapper in my back yard in the burbs. I think unfortunately alot of kids and other stupid people (there are idiotic adults to, stupidity has no age limits) never had anyone telling them how moronic it is to do these things, .

and he's right on...kids/teenagers and plenty of adults live in the moment, they don't think long term, nor do they care much about anything other than their personal world...now of course this isn't everyone, but lots of them...so where are the parents? Where are the adults who are responsible for cultivating these young people into responsible adults...they're hiring lawyers to sue schools when their punk kid doesn't graduate, or gets kicked out...it's a mindset, same as the asshole truck drivers who run me off the road when I go for a road ride, they feel they're entitled to the whole road...it's a common thread...personal responsiblity...the ones littering haven't been taught the right thing to do, regardless of how obvious it is to you and I. I agree with the fines idea, but guess what'll happen, someone will sue, thus tieing up the ranger in court, increasing costs for the rangers, thus the fines will end up as cost prohibitive...

I find litter in the wilderness deplorable, and when I see people littering, I mention it (unless they have a sidearm) to them...but have never had anyone say "oh, yea, I guess I shouldn't litter"...there isn't much you can do with an ingrained attitute like that...

Pixelfrog didn't litter as a kid for fear of his father, not respect for nature...so all these mouthbreathers who have no respect for nature, and no fear of punishment from an angry father..who's left...well...the govt...with a fine...but even that won't fix the problem...people still speed even with $100 fines....so what's left...closing areas...paid permit hiking...ranger escorts...who knows...but I'd totally support a fine system, as long as it was a steep one.

OK, I'll stop rambling...

The sign of our times; less and less people care about others, they care only about themselves and are very selfish. I am glad to be a part of a group here at HAZ, that still cares.

How about shock-collars! BZZZT!