Are you fatalistic about death?

[desert spirit]

The thread about the gentleman who died on Camelback recently got me thinking about death. (I know, I'm kinda morbid).

Regarding the hiker who died ... we all know it could have been us. Who among us hasn't walked along the edge of a cliff or trudged through the desert in the blazing sun, or done something where even a minor mishap could mean we are dead? What do you think about at such times?

What are your thoughts about dying in a wild place? Do you have the attitude that if it happened, it was fate and there was nothing you could have done? Is dying out on the trail "better" than being crunched by a drunk driver?

Does it matter if your body was consumed by animals?

Would your thoughts be any different if we were talking about your spouse dying instead of you?

What do you think about people who commit suicide in National Parks? There was an article on MSNBC about this not long ago. Apparently, it happens a lot.

Ok, I guess that's enough of this topic ... back to nude hiking now ...

[Jeffshadows]

"To live one's life in fear of losing it is to lose the joy of living."

[big_load]

I'm not fatalistic in the strict sense of believing in predetermination, nor in a somewhat looser sense of believing it to be entirely out of my control (but not necessarily at a preordained time and place). However, apart from taking reasonable precautions, I don't obsess about it and I don't much care how it happens (apart from the possibility of extended suffering) or what happens to me afterward. I don't want my spouse to die, at least until after I do.

[JimmyLyding]

The thread about the gentleman who died in the Superstitions recently got me thinking about death. (I know, I'm kinda morbid).

Regarding the hiker who died ... we all know it could have been us. Who among us hasn't walked along the edge of a cliff or trudged through the desert in the blazing sun, or done something where even a minor mishap could mean we are dead? What do you think about at such times?

I would think that I'm an idiot if I were dying out in the blazing sun, but I consider falling off of a cliff to be que sera sera: whatever will be will be. I try to avoid excessively hazarous situations like stepping on loose gravel on the edge of a cliff, but sometimes such situations are unavoidable or unknown beforehand.


What are your thoughts about dying in a wild place? Do you have the attitude that if it happened, it was fate and there was nothing you could have done? Is dying out on the trail "better" than being crunched by a drunk driver?
Dying out in nature sure sounds a lot better than due to a car crash. I'd rather die someplace beautiful than in some stupid car. I think that's the motivation of many of those who commit suicides in national parks. Being out in nature has a way of focusing one's senses. Smell is heightened. Vision is clearer. Thoughts are purer. It is easier to focus on a single course of action out in the woods: walking down the trail; looking for wildlife; seeing how trees are shaped. The list goes on and on. Someone who's planning on committing suicide may find it easier out in nature because may other nagging thoughts ("what about my family?" "what if my team actually goes to the Final Four next year?" "am I being selfish?") find it harder to intrude upon one's sense of purpose. I would hopefully be serene in my passing if it was fate, but I'm sure that I would fight.

Does it matter if your body was consumed by animals?
I don't care as long as I'm not buried in a coffin. Either scatter my ashes on Mount Lemmon, off Maui, or pour me into an urn and place me on top of your television so I can be close to football.

Would your thoughts be any different if we were talking about your spouse dying instead of you?
Most definitely. However, I have no spouse or anyone who's likely to become my wife, so I'm guesstimating here. I would hope that I'd replace my brother in harm's way if it came to that. If an angry bear confronted us, I would probably put myself between the bear and my brother, and I'm not sure what else I can say about the subject. The thought of a loved one dying alone in the woods is pretty painful. Much more painful than the thought of me dying by myself out in the boonies.

What do you think about people who commit suicide in National Parks? There was an article on MSNBC about this not long ago. Apparently, it happens a lot.
Suicide is the ultimate selfish act. Would-be suiciders (made up word of the day!) find it easier and more peaceful to kill themselves in a beautiful natural setting, or so it would seem that way. I think this is similar to why many people kill themselves with sleeping pills. It's easy to focus upon one's task (offing oneself), and easy to replace thoughts of guilt with the intake of the natural setting in a national park. Allegedly.
Ok, I guess that's enough of this topic ... back to nude hiking now ...

It's too cold for nude hiking right now. This is more of a UFO time of year. Maybe we can get a bigfoot thread going?

[chumley]

Maybe we can get a bigfoot thread going?

been there. done that.
http://www.hikearizona.com/dex2/viewtop ... =sightings

[Hoffmaster]

The thread about the gentleman who died in the Superstitions recently got me thinking about death.

When did that happen, and how did I miss that thread? Perhaps you're referring to the thread about the guy on Camelback?

[JimmyLyding]

2 hikers went missing out of First Water trailhead, but they've been found. There's an ATV rider up around Forest Lakes who's been missing for a few days, and sadly it doesn't look as if he'll be found alive.

[desert spirit]

Perhaps you're referring to the thread about the guy on Camelback?

Errrr ... yes ... lol

My spelling is really bad ... I spelled "Camelback" as "Superstitions".

[Davis2001r6]

As long as it's quick I don't mind. Wouldn't really want to sit at the edge of cliff paralyzed and take a week to die. I would hope my family would understand that I was in a place that I love being (outdoors) and doing something that I liked. Better than in a nursing home bed with Alzheimer's.

[SuperstitionGuy]

I almost killed myself in a rolling fall upstream high up in Fish Creek Canyon. I was unconscious for four hours, came to about 7pm when the sun was going down and couldn't remember a thing. I lay there until 3am the next morning defraging my brain before I could remember what I had driven, where I went to hike, where I had parked and where I had hiked prior to my fall. When it became daylight I crawled down to the bottom of the canyon which took me three hours, made a big X with a roll of kitchen paper towels that I had in my pack for the helicopter to see, set up a shade with my poncho next to the stream and thought that it would be at least three days before search and rescue found me.

About an hour later eight backpackers who all worked for an HMO found me. The first to lift up my temporary shelter and ask me if I was alright was a beautiful blond nurse and I thought that I had gone to heaven! They splinted my leg, gave me some very strong pain killer and with two husky guys on each side of me walked me out.

Am I fatalistic about death, no, but I realize that it can come at any time.

[writelots]

I definitely would rather die on the trail than in a car - any day. I can't say I'm a big believer in destiny, but I also think that no matter how well-prepared and careful you are on these trips, there's still an element of the deadly. If the danger were gone, so would be some of the magic.

Have any of you read the book "Over the Edge - Death in the Grand Canyon"? It's a great book - details many if not all of the deaths that have occurred in the Grand Canyon in recorded history (up 'till the point the book was written anyhoo)... It has some very interesting insights on why people sometimes choose to die there, how some people feel about almost dying there, and even why people choose that as a place to kill someone. But it also deals with how making things so safe removes the reality of it - dilutes the experience and actually causes people to go further to recapture the danger. The theory presented is that all the paving, walls and guard rails can actually create a more deadly situation than the raw canyon might have been...

Yack, yack, yack. If you find my dead carcass on the trail, kick me to the side and cover me with branches so I have a chance of hanging out there long enough to contribute to the ecological health of the place. Take my gear first, though. Great gear should never die...

[desert spirit]

But it also deals with how making things so safe removes the reality of it - dilutes the experience and actually causes people to go further to recapture the danger

That's a fascinating theory and I rather believe it. I think when a species grows up in an environment that harbors dangers, such as the savannas of eastern Africa, then individuals of that species will develop a "danger psychology" ... they will have a mental/psychological capacity to deal with danger. In a sense, they "need" the danger. And then if somehow later on the dangers are removed or no longer exist, a certain percentage of those individuals will go so far as to manufacture their own.

In my opinion, this explains why people do seemingly crazy things. Taken to the extreme, it explains why people do things that are so crazy they're self-destructive.

I'm not saying that hiking on the edges of cliffs is crazy. But I think it's reasonable to think that hiking on cliffs in a controlled and safe way is a manifestation of our "danger psychology".

Back to the book you mentioned ... I haven't read it, but I'm sure I've seen it in B & N. I'll grab a copy next chance I get. Thanks for the heads-up

[azdesertfather]

I definitely would rather die on the trail than in a car - any day.

I would too, if it weren't that usually a car will kill you a bit quicker than out on the trail (i.e., something happens to you and you can't get help). I opt for quick and painless!

[azbackpackr]

Have any of you read the book "Over the Edge - Death in the Grand Canyon"? ...and even why people choose that as a place to kill someone. ...

Love that book! Love all Ghiglieri's books! Wrote him a letter one time and he wrote back on a great big postcard that was the cover of Over the Edge.

As for the murderers, the only one that really stands out in my mind is Bob Spangler. I have a copy of Sharon Spangler's guidebook, it was one of the first GC guidebooks I ever owned. That is a very interesting story, and more of Bob Spangler's story is available on a true crime website.

I was hiking with friends by Miner's Spring one time and started telling them the story. I was fascinated by it, and thought it would be fun to tell them the story at the actual location. (Since I also read books by Ann Rule and Vincent Bugliosi, I may be a little bit obsessed with crime stories...) Anyway, as for my friends being charmed by my tale of betrayal and murder...NOT! They told me I was "spoiling their experience of a beautiful place" or something like that. Oh, well, can't please everyone...!

I still say I don't want to die out there, but would prefer to be in my own bed with my family around. I don't really like the mental picture I have of some fat macho redneck Sheriff's Posse types dragging my pumpkin out of the boonies in a plastic bag...

[Jeffshadows]

But it also deals with how making things so safe removes the reality of it - dilutes the experience and actually causes people to go further to recapture the danger

That's a fascinating theory and I rather believe it. I think when a species grows up in an environment that harbors dangers, such as the savannas of eastern Africa, then individuals of that species will develop a "danger psychology" ... they will have a mental/psychological capacity to deal with danger. In a sense, they "need" the danger.

Make no mistake, there are still plenty of places on this planet were humans live in constant peril. Mostly from themselves...

[Jim]

I've been looking at some peaks to climb this August in the Sierra Nevada in CA. Some in particular I look at and wonder if I am ready for them. I am not a technical climber by any means and consider class 3+ or class 4 routes to be my upper limit. I have never done any class 5, am not shy to say that some of them scare the poop out of me, and I doubt I ever will do them. When I look at these climbs I don't think about how hard they are or whether or not they will be pretty, but rather that if I fell I could die. There have only been a few times in my life where I have thought that if I fell and did not stop quickly I would probably die. While being in the actual situation can be terrifying and give absolute clarity in the decision I makes and what I want to do, being back in a safe situation always makes me think that if I did die out on the trail I would consider it a good death. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to die in some macho gun battle or anything stupid like that. I am saying that id I have to go in a bad way I want it to be fast and with very little time to ponder the situation. I think falling to your death on the trail would do that. Besides, who wouldn't want to be "the guy that fell there and they had to bring in a helicopter to get his bloated half eaten corpse"? Its either that or, "well he had minimal brain activity and his family decided to take him off the feeding tube".
I would like for something like being consumed by animals to happen to my otherwise worthless corpse.
I am single and no one would notice me missing for a good long while if I died tomorrow in a slip and fall in my shower, so on the trail wouldn't matter much. If something like that happened to a relative it would surprise me, since no one else in my family is very outdoorsy.
I wouldn't commit suicide in the wilds. No matter how depressed I have ever been getting out there always makes me feel much better.

[JimmyLyding]

The book "Over The Edge..." is great. If anyone does a trip down the Grand Canyon on a boat just ask for a Flaming Loper.
I've read a few books about people being attacked/eaten by animals, and the one thing that strikes me is that the people who survive all claim to not experience pain during the attack. I can't imagine being jumped by the Champawat tigress or hit by a great white shark and not feeling pain, but maybe that's Mama Nature's gift to us when we get taken. Check out Peter Hathaway Capstick if anyone's interested in reading about human beings facing mortality in the wild. Crazy stuff.

I think the real reason people take unnecessary risks is because nothing majorly bad has happened to them in the past, and they feel invincible.

Jhodlof, I read and look at pictures about your hikes up Humphrey's Peak in the winter, and I wonder why you don't write your name and Social Security # on your arm with a sharpie so it would make identification of your body easier in the spring. However, that's cool that you can do that safely. Keep it real, and it sounds like you're experienced enough to avoid any unwanted adventures.

[Strand]

I have no desire to die any time soon, go figure. But, I also have no desire to live a boring modern life surrounded only by technology and "culture". So I go outside, get away from most if not all of humanity and do something that gives me an adrenaline boost while re-establishing my connection with nature. That varies from taking a short easy scenic hike and getting a rush merely from the experience, to a more severe hiking/climbing experience, to battling 10 foot walls of water in 30 knot winds where the rush comes from simply surviving the ordeal with my body (and kite) intact, to mountain biking...etc. I'm drawn to the silent sports because they give me something that I can't get in the day to day working world. Something that I feel is integral to being happy and fulfilled.

I'd rather die doing something I truly enjoy when I'm young, than live to a ripe old age and pass away full of regrets for what I might have done.

If I had a choice. I'd die of old age with a sharp mind full of wonderful memories from all the time I spent outdoors.

[azbackpackr]

If I had a choice. I'd die of old age with a sharp mind full of wonderful memories from all the time I spent outdoors.

I have had the pleasure to hike with quite a few octogenarians, who were long-time hikers and backpackers, who have mostly all now passed away--but none of them during a hike! When I was 20 years old I backpacked up Whale Peak in Anza-Borrego State Park with a guy like that, Eul Fisk, who was almost 80 at that time (1973 or so) and often guided hikes for a club. This was very inspiring to me as a newbie backpacker. He told great stories and was very fit, and I know he did keep backpacking long after that trip. At the time my dad was still alive, and was much younger than Eul, but very unhealthy. I said to myself, I want to be like Eul, not like my dad.

Even now I quite often meet people who think you have to be getting "old" by the time you are 45 or 50, and they just give up. Even with all the newer health knowledge, and lots of media coverage of 90-year-olds going skydiving and 90-year-olds hiking the Appalachian Trail, etc. etc. I constantly meet people who have gotten "old" already, who are not yet even 60. You know the type. Perhaps even your parents fit into this category.

If you want to live differently than that then you have to make a decision about it. It may come easily to you, or not. I made a decision when I was 20 to always stay in shape and eat my vegetables, etc., etc. and to NOT GET FAT. (Getting fat runs in my family and although I am relatively slim it is because I work at it.) I don't drink and I don't smoke and never have. Sometimes I get a bit out of shape, but not compared to most people. I am 55, can still do a cartwheel, can still do a backflip off the diving board, can ride a bike 60 miles (I'm practicing for a century since I have owned the road bike for only 4 months.) And of course, I am still into backpacking. I am always looking ahead to new adventures. If I don't have an outdoor adventure on the calendar, or several of them, I actually get depressed, so I hurry up and find something to plan for so that even if I am very busy with family and work I know I am going to take time off to go on that backpacking trip or river trip, etc.

I have been in situations in my life where the ONLY thing I seemed to have going for me was my fitness and health. I have been unemployed, filing bankruptcy, having family problems of various kinds, etc. etc. But I have never lost sight of staying fit so I would be ready for that next backpacking trip.

Recently I have joined a bicycle club here in Yuma which is made up mostly of people in their late 60's through 80's. I am one of the young ones. They can mostly all kick my butt, too, as far as riding a bike! They mostly all ride centuries once a month. Yet when I mention this to neighbors here who are in the same age group but totally unfit, they marvel at it.

But it's a choice they made. The unfit ones chose their lifestyle, as did the fit ones. Make your choice at a younger age and you will not regret it. If you are already over 50, you still have a chance, though, because anyone can improve from where they are right now.

I see all these older, and a few younger, people walking. Walking is NOT exercise unless you are so out of shape you can't do anything else, or you have some sort of a disability. If you are in such bad shape that the only exercise you can do is walk down the street, then do that, but add to it gradually with serious distance (more than 6 miles) or jogging, hiking, swimming laps and cycling. My husband is one of those disabled people who walks. He worked himself up to a 16-mile dayhike last summer, and lost 100 pounds, too! His disability is still a real problem, he is not cured, but he feels better never-the-less.

Okay, I know I have gone on and on and probably am preaching to the choir, but maybe there are some out there who haven't thought about this very much, and it could help them.

Thanks for listening.
Elizabeth

[desert spirit]

Thank you for a wonderful post, Elizabeth! You have such a great attitude

I am very fortunate in that I have never had to give a second's thought to my health, but I will definitely take what you say to heart.

Hayley