The Wild and Scenic designation of Fossil Creek means bureaucrats can get involved in making poor choices for the places we love!
Of course, with a little bit of involvement from us, perhaps the things they decide to implement will make more sense? (I know, I doubt it too.)
But here's some info if you're feeling ambitious:
Coconino and Tonto Forests Host Public Meetings About Future Management of Fossil Creek
Date: September 10, 2010
Contact: Coconino Supervisor's Office - 928-527-3600
Phoenix, AZ — Coconino and Tonto national forest officials will host two public meetings September 21 and 22 about the future management of Fossil Creek.
The Fossil Creek planning team is seeking public input in determining management plans for the Fossil Creek Wild and Scenic River.
The first meeting is 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. September 21 at the Arizona Game and Fish Office, 5000 West Carefree Highway, Phoenix, Ariz.
The second meeting is 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. September 22 at the Du Bois Center Ballroom, NAU South Campus, Flagstaff, Ariz.
Fore more Information, call Lynn Humphrey, Fossil Creek planning team leader, 541-750-7158. Visit Fossil Creek Wild & Scenic River for more information about the project.
I personally think that the planning team leader should start by not having an Oregon phone number, but I'm not sure if that's the kind of feedback they're really looking for.
Dschur posted an update on the Fossil Springs road closure and it made me think about this whole thing again.
While it's not surprising, it's clear that the FS isn't going to complete it's management plan in 2012 as the schedule indicates.
See http://redrockcountry.org/fossil/index.shtml for all the details of the proposal
Note: "Charge fees all year" is in the proposal.
The more I think about this, the more I believe that the whole area should be designated wilderness, or at least the road forever closed to motor vehicles at the Fossil Springs Trailhead west of Strawberry as well as a few miles west of the creek on the Camp Verde side. The TH will need some improvements and possibly still a permit system that limits the number of hikers per day, but if the creek, waterfalls, and swimming holes can't be accessed without a 3-mile hike I think a lot of the problems go away. Make it like the waterline trail on the sf peaks. If there's a need for official access to the powerlines it's available, but otherwise it's closed to all except hikers, equestrian, etc.
None of that will actually happen because it doesn't involve charging fees for use, and I guarantee you the FS is going to make sure that they can turn this into a money-maker. I say send the yahoo swimmers to the slide-rock fecal-matter pools. Make Fossil Creek a wilderness area.
I think it's ironic that the river was actually better served environmentally when there was a flume and a power plant than it is now that it's a "wild and scenic" river.
chumley wrote:I think it's ironic that the river was actually better served environmentally when there was a flume and a power plant than it is now that it's a "wild and scenic" river.
Just like 'The Wave' (and the Buckskin to a large degree) - before they started 'permitting' it, you'd never see anyone there.
The USFS uses 'camp hosts' at campgrounds all over the country - set him/her up in an outfitter tent down at the end of the Flume Rd. to walk around and help educate the dim-wits - and leave alone the competent majority. With what they will spend on this bureaucratic crap you could pay him/her pretty well. (Of course that doesn't keep hundreds of feds or their 'scientific' counterparts employed either)
Re. charging a fee.. recall that the USFS just had a Judge give them a little reading lesson, reminding them that to charge a fee all of these MUST be provided: restrooms, picnic tables, garbage receptacles (sure, trash trucks heading down from Strawberry to empty the dumpster - I can see it now...), parking, signing and patrols. And also that NO FEE may be charged for: General access - Pass-through travel by car, foot, boat, or horse - Scenic overlooks and pullouts - Wayside exhibits - Parking only - Dispersed areas with low or no investment - Information centers at administrative offices - Right-of-access permitted hunting & fishing access (keep those licenses handy, boys!) - Extra services for needs of disabled - Facility entry & use of standard amenity fee sites and services for persons under 16 & education. (oh, so Boy Scouts get in FREE!)
There IS an Arizona-based gal also on the 'team'.... rather than just complain here - remember to call or email her as well.
Elizabeth Dykstra
ID Team Leader, Fossil Creek
USDA Forest Service
(928) 527-3419 edykstra@fs.fed.us
"The censorship method ... is that of handing the job over to some frail and erring mortal man, and making him omnipotent on the assumption that his official status will make him infallible and omniscient."
George Bernard Shaw
end of this month my boyfriend and I will be taking the Subaru and the mountain bikes out to FC, park the Suby at Sally Mae and ride the bikes from there.
I'm really hoping nothing is closed, we went last year and some kids were having a huge neon desert rave down at the power plant...crazy!
i wish i had time to be part of some team to make decisions on how to care for FC, oh the changes to be made and how simple it all would be!!!
i was, however, able to send a few rather choice emails and phone calls to some friends in that area and they sent them along accordingly.
only time will tell how the "government" decides to take care of FC...until then those of us that are competent...just keep doing what we do, pick up other peoples trash, its goo karma! practice leave no trace and educate the future generations on conservation and preservation...all we can do but every bit helps.
District recreation officer in charge of Fossil Creek, points to two other Arizona riparian areas as possible models. Aravaipa Creek Wilderness currently operates under a permit system that allows no more then 50 people per day and no more than 10 people per party. Permits for spring and fall weekends at Aravaipa usually sell out within hours. Sabino Canyon Recreation Area, outside of Tucson, charges a day use fee and can only be reached by foot or shuttle bus.
I sure hope they don't go the Sabino way. I'd much prefer the Aravaipa model...
I'm not sure what my spirit animal is, but I'm confident it has rabies.
New meeting on the new proposed management of the Fossil Creek/Springs area...
The Forest Service will seek feedback on the seven alternatives at a public open house from 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m., Tuesday, Sept. 3 at the Payson Senior Center, 514 W. Main St. Forest Service rangers will set up maps, explain the alternative plans and seek feedback at that meeting.
There are several proposals and some even ban all hiking into the area from the Mail Trail and the Fossil Springs Trail. One allows ATVs down the road to the bottom of the springs but doesn't allow any hiking past the creek by the road.
Dawn
--On the loose to climb a mountain, on the loose where I am free. On the loose to live my life the way I think my life should be...For we only have a moment and a whole world yet to see...I'll be looking for tomorrow on the loose. ---unknown--
Thanks Dawn- I hadn't seen that yet. Nice to see they give 2-days notice for meetings like this :roll: Interestingly, the FS acknowledges that the bulk of users are from the valley, and yet their public meetings are only being held in Payson and Pine?
The Tonto NF has no information on their website yet (nor does Coconino).
Here are the options being presented, in case the Roundup article disappears (or if you don't like answering questions to read it).
Concept A: A place of beauty and enjoyment.
This alternative would let people still drive in from Camp Verde all the way to the old power plant site. They could still swim in the creek all along the way and hike up to the upper waterfall — a popular swimming hole and frequent site of rescues. People would need a permit to take the road down to the Verde River at Childs, mostly so they could take river trips on the Verde. From the Strawberry side, people could park at the Nash Trailhead on the rim of the canyon and then hike down to the creek on the Mail Trail above the spring. The plan would include new, developed facilities including picnic areas at a new visitor area near where FR 502 heads down to the Verde River and at the old power plant site. Concessionaires might offer equipment rentals, but the area above the upper waterfall would have restricted access to protect the stream and the wildlife.
Concept B: Fossil Creek by foot, hoof or bike.
This alternative would bar vehicles from the whole central portion of the creek. People could still drive in from Camp Verde to the FR 502 and FR 708 junction and then drive on down to the Verde River. However, they’d have to get out of their vehicles and saddle up, get out their bikes or hike to access the core of the creek all the way up to the upper waterfall and Fossil Springs. They would need a permit to enter the creek area — or maybe a slot in a guided trip — either a day hike or an overnight. Some trails would allow horses and some mountain bikes and some just hikers. On the Strawberry side, the road would end at the Nash Trailhead on FR 708. People could hike down on the Nash Trail, which crosses the creek well above Fossil Springs in an area you would need a permit to enter. The plan features visitor centers open year-round at both the Welcome Center on the Camp Verde side and a facility at the Nash Trailhead.
Concept C: Land ethic institute.
This plan would turn the core of the creek into a research institute focused on protecting and enhancing the “outstandingly remarkable values” like the plants and wildlife. People could drive in from Camp Verde to an “Institute Portal” near the junction of FR 502 and 708. School, research and educational groups could use the institute facilities, which would become a center for research on riparian areas. The plan includes a facility dedicated to Native American cultural research. People could only venture into the core of the riparian area with a permit, presumably as a result of their involvement in research. This concept would provide little access from the Rim Country side, with the exception of the Nash Trailhead.
Concept D: Living learning laboratory.
This plan would turn the core of the creek into a “premier environmental learning experience” for both educational groups and visitors. People could drive in from Camp Verde as far as a research station and learning center before they reached the creek. They would need a permit to continue to the creek and down FR 502 to the Verde River or on up the creek to the old power plant site. The creek would have a series of learning and demonstration areas. One would feature history and Native American traditions, one would focus on fish, another on the night sky, another on frogs and invertebrates, one on hydroelectric power and one on geology, with an emphasis on the chemistry of the travertine formations developing constantly along the creek bed. This option would also allow access down the Fossil Creek Trail to the spring and to the Mail Trail. Even with this limited access by permit, the portion of FR 708 between the trailhead and the creek would remain closed.
Concept E: Scenic driving for pleasure.
This plan remains the only proposal that would allow any kind of motorized access to the creek down FR 708 on the Strawberry side. An ORV rider with a permit could go down the road once maintained by APS, down along the creek and come out on the other side. Regular vehicles could enter the area from the Camp Verde side as far as the FR 502 intersection. From there they could go south to the Verde River along Fossil Creek or they could unhook their off-road vehicles to continue on up the stream. Oddly enough, the plan eliminates most of the trails, turning the creek into a playground exclusively for people with off-road vehicles. In a cruel twist, the plan offers the only hope of road access from the Strawberry side — but then shuts down the Fossil Spring and Mail trails — eliminating access for hikers. The plan also cuts off the trails along the creek, eliminating the bulk of the recreational use that now exists. But at least the plan includes several overlooks so people could look down at the creek in which they used to swim. Even at that, the plan calls for permits and limits on the number of lucky off-roaders able to venture down the road.
Concept F: Refugia.
This option would focus on turning the creek into a wildlife refuge for fish, birds, frogs and other species. People could still drive in from the Camp Verde side as far as the old power plant site. They could also hike from the Nash Trailhead down the Mail Trail — but not to the spring. The area between the upper waterfall and the spring would be entirely closed to the public, to protect things like black hawks and leopard frogs. People would pay an entrance fee and management for the benefit of wildlife and native fish would predominate. People could still drive in from Camp Verde and hike and swim along the creek all the way to the upper waterfall. Feature areas would include a nature trail through a stretch of mesquite bosk, one of the most biologically productive desert environments. The plan also calls for other interpretive trails including a canopy walk with a black hawk viewing platform. These large, endangered hawks live on frogs, fish, crayfish and other riparian species. Exquisitely maneuverable despite their size, they hunt along the creek. Because more than 90 percent of the riparian areas in Arizona have been degraded or destroyed, the black hawk is now endangered. About half of the creek would become a botanical area with strict restrictions on access, although guided tours and outfitters might be allowed to enter those areas.
Concept G: Tribal cultures.
One of the most restrictive plans, this approach would turn the creek into an exploration of Native American cultures, with the Yavapai-Apache Tribe sharing “stewardship” of the area. The plan would bar most swimming and overnight recreation, with a ban on glass and alcohol. The Forest Service would set up several interpretive hubs and ceremonial grounds closed to the general public. The public might get to sometimes watch ceremonial events, however. The plan might include some limited recreational sites with things like picnic tables. People could drive in from Camp Verde to the power plant site, but access to the upper waterfall would be limited. For some reason, the plan would bar access to the creek from the Strawberry side not only on the road, but also on the Fossil Springs and Mail trails.
Copyright disclaimer: The concepts above are extracted for fair use from the Payson Roundup, with the assumption that they were provided by a Forest Service order or publication, which by law are in the public domain. For additional content, please read the entire Roundup article at this link: http://www.paysonroundup.com/news/2013/ ... -concepts/
It was in Fridays paper but I just read it today...
Dawn
--On the loose to climb a mountain, on the loose where I am free. On the loose to live my life the way I think my life should be...For we only have a moment and a whole world yet to see...I'll be looking for tomorrow on the loose. ---unknown--
What about "None of the above???" Big brother shutting off access to everyone.
OVRs (read: "ATVs") can ride/drive down the road, but don't you dare get off and enjoy the creek, and no one can hike anywhere? Who thinks up this garbage? Had I known about the meeting a little more in advance I would have made plans to attend. Too late now though
I'm thinking (what may be a "last") trip down Fossil Springs trail may be in order this weekend...
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.
Option H: Increase the size of the Fossil Creek Wilderness to include the entire south side of the drainage from the top of Deadman Mesa down to the creek, westward to the Mazatzal Wilderness*. This will close vehicular access from Strawberry forever. On the west side, close the road at the 708/502 junction, including all of 502, eliminating vehicle access to the Verde River. (*Yes I know. Act of Congress/Executive Order by President Obama required).
Begin a permit process for hikers and equestrian users to access the area using Aravaipa Wilderness as a model. Enforce group size limits and daily numbers. Access points will be from the west at a 708 trailhead, or from the east at the Fossil Springs trailhead. The permits should be free, but a nominal fee could be charged if rangers are placed on duty to enforce the permit rules. Permit holders should be educated on proper camping guidelines, fire restrictions, resource damage, and human waste. (Access from other trails or off-trail are ok, but must be permitted via either the east or west permit allotments).
paulhubbard wrote:What about "None of the above???" Big brother shutting off access to everyone.
OVRs (read: "ATVs") can ride/drive down the road, but don't you dare get off and enjoy the creek, and no one can hike anywhere? Who thinks up this garbage? Had I known about the meeting a little more in advance I would have made plans to attend. Too late now though
I'm thinking (what may be a "last") trip down Fossil Springs trail may be in order this weekend...
As shown in the thread above, they've been holding public meetings to come up with these alternatives for about 3 years now. Regardless of what finally gets decided, it's not like it's going to take effect tomorrow. There should be no rush to make a "last" trip down there anytime soon.
Except perhaps if you'd like to see it once more before it is completely devoid of streamside vegetation and strewn with beer cans, broken glass, trash, feces and toilet paper. Or did that already happen?
I'm not sure what my spirit animal is, but I'm confident it has rabies.
@chumley
I know they've been going on for a long time now, but this is the first I've seen of the proposed alternatives. Out of the bunch I like your Option H the best. I just don't want to see any of the area be closed off completely (entry prohibited). It looks like the Fossil Springs trail could be effected (closed) under most of the plans?
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.
What I keep trying to figure out is where the Nash TH is.. Is that the current TH from Fossil Creek Road or is it on the otherside off of 260??
Dawn
--On the loose to climb a mountain, on the loose where I am free. On the loose to live my life the way I think my life should be...For we only have a moment and a whole world yet to see...I'll be looking for tomorrow on the loose. ---unknown--
Dschur wrote:What I keep trying to figure out is where the Nash TH is.. Is that the current TH from Fossil Creek Road or is it on the otherside off of 260??
That puzzled me too. All the maps and such seem to call it the Fossil Creek TH (where Fossil Springs Trail 18 heads downhill west of Strawberry). But Nash Point is at least a whole lot closer to that TH than to where the Mail Trail 84 drops in from the north side. Though I know of no trails or vehicle access to Nash Point proper.
I can't find any mention of the Nash TH on any of the FS websites. Maybe the Payson Roundup invented it! ;)
I'm not sure what my spirit animal is, but I'm confident it has rabies.
Understand, when you eat meat, that something did die. You have an obligation to value it - not just the sirloin but also all those wonderful tough little bits.
Anthony Bourdain
Dawn
--On the loose to climb a mountain, on the loose where I am free. On the loose to live my life the way I think my life should be...For we only have a moment and a whole world yet to see...I'll be looking for tomorrow on the loose. ---unknown--
Unfortunately (that's my opinion), the folks in the Rim Country seem more concerned about keeping access to the creek open for economic benefits rather than preserving the unique nature of the creek. That almost never works out well for preservation.
I'm not sure what my spirit animal is, but I'm confident it has rabies.
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