State Park Closures due to lack of funding.

GTG_AZH · Post by **GTG_AZH** » Jun 13 2002 10:08 pm

Heard on NPR this morning the state will be closing ten state parks in the next year or so due to lack of funding. Two mentioned were Lost Dutchman State Park and Picacho State Park.

What is going on here?

GTG

MtnGeek · Post by **MtnGeek** » Jun 14 2002 2:22 pm

I sure hope this does not close down trails, mainly the Flatiron. I was really looking foward to doing this mountian in the winter. What was the cost of Lost Dutchman state park anyway?

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Jun 14 2002 2:37 pm

I have more thoughts on the topic than could be covered in a paragraph or two here. I'll try to summarize a few:

Arizona is over 80% public lands. Some are more public than others, as we have limited access rights to sovereign tribal lands (another issue...I won't go there) If even a nickel an acre was collected annually from the public lands, the state would be in fat city...one of the prices we pay for living in the middle of a major public playground. Property taxes on the private share don't pay for the total costs of a growing state. Taxes are unreasonably low on agricultural lands and vacant speculative land (this is a thesis topic of its own), so they don't pay their share either.

The current fiscal crisis is to no small degree due to the alt fuels fiasco. As CK has noted, state salaries are so poor, that over 25% annual staff turnover is occurring in some agencies (anyone who doesn't think such a skill loss is expensive has never run a business). In the crisis de jour, each agency is only looking out for number one.

Every other interest group will be fighting for their pet issue. I would encourage everyone to use whichever outdoor advocacy group you support (or can stomach) to raise this issue. Send money. I guarantee you that the homebuilders association, the general contractors association, the roadbuilders association, the cattlemans association and even the eat-more-possum folks have highly paid lobbyists wandering the halls of the legislature as we speak, twisting arms, buying lunch and slapping backs for their causes. Write your representative, fine...but write a check too; that's the way the game is played.

Here's an example: There are 90 million gun owners in the US. Only 5 million of us (less than 6% of gun owners) pay dues to the NRA, yet the organization has significant clout. I'm not trying to start a debate on that topic, just suggesting that if 10% of all hikers, backpackers and public lands recreationalists would donate 100 bucks a year to a single broad based organization to support public lands access, the clout would be huge. The clout is now spread among a large number of groups with very narrow, specific, and often conflicting agendas who probably could not agree on lunch. (If anyone knows anybody at the Sierra Club-we're not on speaking terms right now- feel free to pass this on with my regards)

At the least, each of these "green" organizations could agree to "adopt" a state park for a couple years. REI, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, too.

CK, as a former state employee ("the beatings will continue until the morale improves") I empathize with your comments. I hated James Watts, too; but I think there's a different game afoot now. I believe it is only a matter of time before OPEC tells us that continued oil shipments are linked to a major shift in our support of Israel. As the balance of the world's known reserves are in Russia and Mexico-who have their own agendas, we will have to fish or cut bait.

Ok, I'm done now, someone elses turn....-R

olesma · Post by **olesma** » Jun 14 2002 3:19 pm

Randy - i will add a hearty Dito to your comments.

You raise an issue that I think merits yet another thesis paper - the fact that narrow interests are over-represented in government, and broad interests are under-represented. It is the very nature of a narowly focused group to be able to organize themselves into an effective force (fanatacism the world over has provided ample proof of this) to obtain their goals through whatever means they consider ethical (I won't get into a discussion of good vs. evil here).

The broader interests of the average Joe Public are less focused simply because we don't have a narro agenda. We would rather see everyone modestly accomodated than a few groups hyper-accomodated. And if one group yells louder, we accomodate them just to get them to shut up. Milquetoast indeed.

I am unaware of any groups that are strong advocates of broad use and general access to public lands. Is there a group that anyone is aware of tha is organized and could be a potential aly for us in the fight to keep the public lands open? I don't particularly relish the idea of just sending my representative a check. Without proper lobying - it just becomes a worthless bribe (not that it doesn't present some intriguing scenarios involving blackmail....).

BoyNhisDog · Post by **BoyNhisDog** » Jun 14 2002 3:44 pm

Good points guys. I would like to hear more of the details of what's going on with this as soon anyone hears them. You would be surprized at what you are capable of if you are tenacious.

I have first hand knowledge of this. Look at how many folks are members here. Personal letters and phone calls are very powerful. You have to be tenacious though. Email is not any good at this. Too many folks use it and it will be ignored. That is my experience.

kurthzone · Post by **kurthzone** » Jun 14 2002 5:23 pm

MaryPhyl wrote:Yesterday's Arizona Republic says there will be a meeting of the State Parks Board on June 20 at 10 AM in the Maricopa County Supervisors Auditorium 205 W. Jefferson St. The board will act on the recommendations at that time.
The article says they are facing a 16% budget cut. They seem to plan to increase user fees pretty dramatically on the parks that are open.

I Believe this is the article in the Republic:
http://www.arizonarepublic.com:80/arizo ... rks13.html
I could not find a thing on the State's web site concerning this topic or meeting.

GTG_AZH · Post by **GTG_AZH** » Jun 15 2002 2:25 am

I agree that this is an a complete mishandling of funds for lands that we have all already paid something to our state and federal governments to put aside for us to enjoy publicly.

Not to mash an issue too hard, but I wonder how much of that state fundage went towards Tempe Town Lake development.

Another great fact to know and understand would be the amount of funds spent through the AZ Tourism and Sports Authority deciding where we could and could not build an NFL stadium.
http://www.az-tsa.com/

Didn't any of them learn anything from BOB?

Yikes, I post the most viewed and most politically driven posts thus far.
Maybe I should run as a politician.

A Vote For Me Is A Vote For Hiking!

Thanks,
GTG

BoyNhisDog · Post by **BoyNhisDog** » Jun 15 2002 7:26 am

I vote for GTG!

On the stadium issue, I was just hoping they wouldn't put it down near the Salt River. Guess who gets to do the mapping flight. I have had to fly all the road projects and other projects where it took me directly across the flight paths of all the major runways. It is harrowing. Controlers screaming, T-Cass's going off, violent turns and me trying to be heard above the cacophony so we can do a little precision mapping. :roll:

ck_1 · Post by **ck_1** » Jun 15 2002 8:38 am

Ya know how sometimes other peoples jobs look more glamourous than our own...after reading Glen's post 8O , I'll stay in the classroom for awhile.

montezumawell · Post by **montezumawell** » Jun 15 2002 9:19 am

Arizona State Parks isn't the most "up and up" of the State Agencies.
The announcement of park closings is nothing new for them. They've been doing it for years. We went through it numerous times for Dead Horse Ranch State Park in Cottonwood. ASPB uses what some people call "food chain physics" when they decide to "eat their own." In other words, they pick on the weakest and lamest of the herd. They know ordinary people from small towns and Chambers of Commerce around the state will come unglued and crawl out of the woodwork (or from under rocks, as the case may be) and come whining and moaning to the Parks Board and (MOST importantly) the Legislature. There's probably no more amazing political sight than a bus load of ordinary, regular (WONDERFUL) Arizona common people decending on the Legislature to plead their case. No stuffed suits or expensive lobbyist lunches for that crowd. Nope, it's "get down on the knees and beg time." Parks does this "closing routine" all the time. It's a technique that goes back at least 20 years that we personally know of.
The likelihood of ALL of those parks getting closed is REALLY slim. Watch and see.

We have extremely LOW regard for ASPB. Can you tell?
We served on the Arizona Outdoor Recreation Coordinating Commission from 1987 to 1991 so we have a little more "insider" knowledge than most residents. What's so shameful is that it's virtually "night and day" when you cross the statelines. Utah and California have awesome systems. They are absolutely incredible compared to Arizona's. California has faced budget crunches since budget crunches were invented. Yet their parks have up-to-date, awesome facilities like you read about in college recreational textbooks. You can camp in prime beach and redwoods spots for $12 a night and have hot running water, flush toilets, tiled bathrooms, 25 cents showers and super clean campsites. Your camp fee includes the day use fee and, get this, your receipt is good for entry at all day use fee parks nearby for a 24 hour period! Now this is even weirder--California actually REDUCED their annual day use fee by FIFTY PERCENT this year!
They decided regular stiffs needed a break so they cut the cost of the annual pass from $70 to $35. We both about fainted when we learned this. It will be a really cold day in Hades before our ASPB or the bimbos in our Legislature ever cut park fees. Seeing what the "other side" looks like over here where the grass really IS greener sure makes our ASPB look even more worthless, pathetic, ridiculous and genuinely stupid than we thought they already were.

J&S in Sloughouse, CA.

PS--We are visiting family here so we will be on the Net for a couple of days. Will update our logs Sunday and reply to some posts for awhile. We love this website. THANKS JOE--Your're a Prince!

jeremy77777 · Post by **jeremy77777** » Jun 16 2002 11:34 am

So we have a budget crunch. To keep the parks open, they will raise the entry fees. But "only until the crunch is over". Yeah right. Once they realize people will pay the higher price they will just keep it. I have seen it happen in this state before. If anyone can remember the 80's they will remember what I'm talking about. However, if they did add awesome facilities that were up-to-date and kept them clean....then fine. I personally wouldn't mind paying $6 for use of beautiful AZ land for a day. I pay that much to go to the movies but I am only entertained for two hours. Hmmm......all day...or...two hours...tough one :idea:

Nighthiker · Post by **Nighthiker** » Jul 04 2002 6:27 pm

I was advised that the state parks that are closed and slated for closing the park staff will remain for security and maint. There was a hiring freeze so seasonal help was not hired and some park staff have been reassigned due to not replacing full time staff. Lost Dutchman State Park gets a lot of german tourist this time of year and Tonto Natural Bridge has a bldg you can stay in and it was booked for the summer yet the state closed this park as well.

CindyC · Post by **CindyC** » Jul 12 2002 5:55 pm

This website has a list of the parks and the dates they are to be closed. http://www.pr.state.az.us

jeremy77777 · Post by **jeremy77777** » Jul 12 2002 6:37 pm

Parks generate money. So why close them?

:

doug h · Post by **doug h** » Jul 12 2002 6:59 pm

The expenses or more than they bring in the summer. But closing them does not do any thing for the fixed expenses.
I think that it is a politcal move to get more money.

jeremy77777 · Post by **jeremy77777** » Jul 13 2002 1:38 pm

If they can't run the parks, then just open them up to the public like national forests.

MaryPhyl · Post by **MaryPhyl** » Jul 13 2002 2:11 pm

I can agree with that Jeremy. Only problem I can see is who takes care of the toilets. Don't most of those parks have them?

montezumawell · Post by **montezumawell** » Jul 13 2002 4:29 pm

Face it--Arizona State Parks are mismanaged. Somebody should do an investigation of their Keystone Cops style management. It's ridiculous.
Budget cruches are a way of life in this day and age. We're up here in Oregon. They've got a ga-zillion dollar budget cruch, too. But it ain't touching state parks here. Go figure. People say the voters in Oregon mandated that a portion of the lottery funds go to state parks and that's what insulates them from legislative BS. Gee, we thought we did that, too, for AZ State Parks about 12 years ago. Oh, well, griping won't do any good, the management over at state parks stinks. That's all there is to it.

J&S in Gold Beach, Oregon.

joebartels · Post by **joebartels** » Jul 13 2002 5:15 pm

Without stirring up too much controversy...

There's a major underlying element behind all this.
It started with a decision to supplement the declining state lotto.
Arizona choose the even less state-profitable Powerball.

jeremy77777 · Post by **jeremy77777** » Jul 14 2002 2:05 am

About the tiolets. Close them. Just treat the parks as national forest. There are no facilities in the middle of nowhere as you hike. I'm sure there must be a drawback somewhere...

:

jeremy77777 · Post by **jeremy77777** » Jul 14 2002 2:06 am

Hey Teva, what is this about the powerball?

State Park Closures due to lack of funding.

State Park Closures due to lack of funding.

Land Management

Salient thoughts

not to make light of the subject

We love this website!

Ship of fools