New OHV Laws...One small step

[Jeffshadows]

It's a start; I think the noise requirement is overly generous...

OHV_LAWS_SUMMARY_Nov08.pdf

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[mttgilbert]

Does it really matter if you can't agree on the semantics? If it's ignorance or irresponsibility, you quibbling over which one to call it does nothing to educate any of them. Focus on the solution. Either way the solution has to be education. If they are ignorant then someone needs to tell them that what they're doing is wrong. If they are "shifting blame" then someone needs to tell them that what they (specifically) are doing is wrong.

That said; I'm pretty sure lumping all of "them" into one category isn't helping either. There are lots of responsible and educated OHV users. The problem is that the ones that are ignorant and irresponsible stand out more than the good ones so you remember them. Fact is, the responsible ones have every bit as much of a right to use public lands as we do, even if we perceive ourselves as lower impact, more conscientious, etc... Frankly, I think if we got down to it we could find hikers, backpackers, climbers, and paddlers who are all as irresponsible as we think the OHV users are. It’s up to those in the know to help out those that are not and in-fighting never got anyone any closer to helping those in need.

Fact is, the laws are evolving to deal with a minority of users, and the laws will always be a step behind. Education is key. Remember, we may all have different Means but our ENDs are the same. The bulk of users are just out to enjoy nature in the way they best see fit. It’s up to us all to compromise so that we can all have our slice of the pie (and so there is some pie left over for the future).

[chumley]

You're not getting it. They don't think they're doing anything wrong. They're not shifting the blame anywhere.

I am getting it. But ignorance is not an excuse. They're not shifting the blame because nobody has confronted them yet. When they find out, then they'll claim "I didn't know..." That's shifting the blame. Its their job to know because that's the responsible thing to do. (Plus, I think that 99% truly know that there must be some rules, but choose not to learn what they are-- Seriously, is there anything in our society that isn't regulated. There are lots of stupid people in the world, but really?!).

Focus on the solution. Either way the solution has to be education .... Education is key.

I agree. Unfortunately, its tough to teach something to an unwilling student. Too many in our society don't care, don't want to know, and will ignore something they learn if they disagree with it. And as long as there's no enforcement or consequences, then a majority of people in today's society will be irresponsible and take the 'easy' route. A sad commentary on society.

[gunnysergeant]

RE: New AZ OHV Law (A.R.S. Unknown) I as an ATV owner, Trail Rider, retired totally disabled as a result of Korea and Viet Nam (USMC) fought for your and my Constitutional (As Amended) Rights. First I resent being classified as "Hells Angels" on four wheels. An ATV is my legs and only form of Recreation as determined by the Veteran's Administration, the State of Arizona and God. That being said I bring to your attention the following: The 14th Amendment of the Constitution affords everyone equal protection under the "LAW". AZ OHV Law as explained by AZ Game and Fish is for the purpose of charging a fee for Users of Off-Road Public Lands in order to supplement the cost of "Policing" those "Trashy Users" and rehabing and maintaining legal and illegal trails caused by ATV Riders and ?, fully ignoring the Hikers, Mountain Bike Riders, Horse Riders and Partiers (the 30 year old pre-teens/beer drinkers, etc.) who also vandalize our Public Lands (Equal Protection (Treatment) Under the LAW). I avail myself, as do others to the privilege afforded by Federal and State Law that allows me the use of Public Lands, both State and Federal. I assume the responsibility of abiding by those laws and do not abuse this privilege. I and others Ride and Hike in the National Forests (Federal Land) of the State of Arizona so upkeep and policing of State Trust Lands is the responsibility of IT"S USERS and the State, not just ATV Riders, especially if they do not use Public State Land. A Decal is already required for State Trust Land Access. Tax disperal laws of the State restricts providing State funded Law Enforcement Personnel and Equipment to fulfill obligations and Federally funded functions set forth in Article 36 (CFR's 200-299) for the Administration and Operation of the National Forests in every State. For any State to usurp that authority is violation of Federal Law.

The Department of Agriculture allocates suppossedly inadequate funds to the Forest Service to fulfill it's assigned Administrative, Maintenance and Enforcement functions. The funding levels are the decision of the Secretary and are caused by the enormous usage experienced in modern times. Solving this shortfall IS NOT the responsibility or privilege of any State. Accordingly the State of Arizona is hiking a dangerous path opening itself to Cival Law Suits due to violation of existing State and Federal Laws regarding dispersal and use of funding mandated by State Law and failure to adhere to the Rights and Privileges set forth in the 14th Amendent to the Constitution of the United States (for which I fought for). I do not object for the U. S. Forest Service to charge a reasonable annual Users Fee to EVERYONE who uses ANY National Forest. I do object being charged a fee for Public Lands that I do not use, just the same as I would object to a Movie Theater charging me for entry, employees wages and clean up when I do not enter their property or see their movie. GUNNYSERGEANT

[Dschur]

I do not object for the U. S. Forest Service to charge a reasonable annual Users Fee to EVERYONE who uses ANY National Forest. I do object being charged a fee for Public Lands that I do not use, just the same as I would object to a Movie Theater charging me for entry, employees wages and clean up when I do not enter their property or see their movie.

According to fish and game website

A person may operate an all-terrain vehicle or an off-highway vehicle in Arizona without an off-highway vehicle user indicia (OHV Decal) if any of the following applies:

The person is participating in an off-highway special event
The person is operating an all-terrain vehicle or off-highway vehicle on private land
The person is loading or unloading an all-terrain vehicle or off-highway vehicle from a vehicle
During a period of emergency of if the operation is directed by a peace officer or other public authority

So if you are on private land you do not need one. If in forest yes...

[Jeffshadows]

Before this gets too out of hand: Many of us on here fought (in wartime) for the rights we all enjoy; that, however, is an issue not at all relevant to the discussion surrounding OHV use, especially ATV use.

The central sticking point when it comes to ATV use is the quality of the outdoor experience for all involved. Does the modicum of "recreation" that sport ATV users garnish offset the tremendous ecological and disruptive impact they have? I, for one, am tired of hearing an ATV screaming up Oracle Control Road ten miles away whenever hiking on the backside of Lemmon where I have gone for peace and solitude. In the same vein, I'm tired of hearing crotch-rockets blasting their way up Catalina Highway when I'm anywhere within a twenty-mile radius, as well. One final angle, I get awfully tired of "Fast and the Furious" wannabees rolling stop signs and flying through our neighborhood at fifty miles an hour with their retarded, fart-noise amplifying, bass-blasting POS cars.

What I'm getting at is this: If I'm out hiking on a trail five miles away from another group, I am not disturbing them or the surrounding ecosystem (Usually). If I'm out on an ATV, everyone within a twenty-mile radius is disturbed, unduly, and all of the wildlife have long since fled the area (Never mind what my tires are doing to the ground beneath them).

My $0.03

[gunnysergeant]

In response to Dschur:
Obviously overlooked is the fact that if I use my street legal ATV to visit my riding companion's house a quarter of mile away without an OHV Decal I can be cited, required to go to Court, be charged $137.00 plus costs to pay for EVERYONES TRASH AND MISDEEDS IN AREAS I DO NOT UTILIZE and thusly innocent of, but I would be guilty of breaking an ill-conceived and unenforcable law. As with any non-registered vehicle in the State of Arizona Law Enforcement Personnel have no jurisdiction over vehicles being operated on private property unless so requested by the Property Owner/Owners or their Legal Representative (i.e. Leasee/Renter/Manager.) gunnysergeant

[gunnysergeant]

In response to Jeff MacE:
It is a gimme that "many of us have served in the Military". My reference was to indicate my "individual motivation" for so doing, not to seek sympathy or tout myself as being a hero. The emphasis on the 14th Admendment requiring equal treatment under the law and law makers adhereing this edict when they recind the new Arizona OHV Law will more than justify my choice of a Military Career. As another poster said "I want---------, and I don't want--------", exclusivity of use is not what public lands are all about. We all pay taxes, we all have one vote and we all must live together in a Civil Society. Ear Plugs are not the obvious answer, doing away with others rights to satisfy our own agenda and preferences do not solve
problems. Legal compromise and fairness does.

[dysfunction]

You're not getting it. They don't think they're doing anything wrong. They're not shifting the blame anywhere.

And when I encounter them I have no problems informing them of their wrong doings.. even as a (well now former) OHV owner/operator. As with anything, responsible use rarely causes problems and peer enforcement works

[PaleoRob]

Tax disperal laws of the State restricts providing State funded Law Enforcement Personnel and Equipment to fulfill obligations and Federally funded functions set forth in Article 36 (CFR's 200-299) for the Administration and Operation of the National Forests in every State. For any State to usurp that authority is violation of Federal Law.

Just want to make sure I understand what you're saying; basically the state cannot take over a federal duty; i.e. immigration, emissions, enforcing federal laws on federal land, right?

The funding levels are the decision of the Secretary and are caused by the enormous usage experienced in modern times.

The people using the land create the funding level, is that what you are saying?

Obviously overlooked is the fact that if I use my street legal ATV to visit my riding companion's house a quarter of mile away without an OHV Decal I can be cited, required to go to Court, be charged $137.00 plus costs

According to what Dshur posted above, unless you were then going to take off from your buddy's place onto public land to go "off roading", you shouldn't have to have an OHV sticker.

[JimmyLyding]

The thing about equal treatment of the law can be applied both ways. gunnysergeant is likening the fee that OHV users now have to pay to a fee/fine because of the sins of a few. He feels that he's not being treated equally under the law. He feels as if he's being fined for someone else's action.
However, he is being treated equally under the law. ALL OHV users (except on private land) have to pay a fee. It is not only the fact that even the most responsible OHV users leave a sizeable impact, it is the fact that everyone has an obligation to support what they love doing. This new fee isn't a capricious tax imposed by the ardent environmentalists in the Arizona legislature :roll: . I hope OHV users can see this as a means to help maintain their ability to enjoy the outdoors.

I realize no one likes shelling out bucks for outdoor recreation, but it's a fact of life. We pay fees to use campgrounds, park at trailheads, hunt, fish, and even visit certain areas. The money has got to come from somewhere, and it seems as if it is never enough. Maybe some of the amenities like parking areas, policing of OHVs, rangers, cleanup, and signage are things that we can do without. A lot of people would choose no fees ever over having those things. However, a lot of people would prefer paying nominal fees to enjoy certain aspects of the outdoors with the understanding that certain amentities are provided. Whether that is worth doing, and to what scope, can certainly be discussed in another thread.

It is entirely true that OHVs have much more impact upon the environment than hikers. Noise, pollution, surface contact, the works. However, responsible OHV users should be allowed to continue to have fun. Some people would prefer that they be banned, but that isn't practical. I'd love to get a $50K raise, but things being what they are indicate that I should stick to reality. $137 or whatever the cost is is not a bad price to be able to enjoy a year's worth of OHV experiences in a place as beautiful as Arizona.

[Jeffshadows]

"Doing away with others rights to satisfy our own agenda" <sic>.

This epitomizes the mindset I was describing; as long as you have your fun making all the noise you please everyone else be damned...right?

It's like I said, folks. They honestly don't think they're doing anything wrong. Who am I to say otherwise, right? ;)

Here's my offer for compromise. I really don't care what goes on out on the dirt roads in Marana, etc. Why not limit ATV use to places where they will have little to no impact on others who are out to enjoy themselves, as well. The state has many, many established OHV usage areas. How about if we restrict usage of ATVs to these OHV areas?

[chumley]

Why not limit ATV use to places where they will have little to no impact on others who are out to enjoy themselves

What an incredibly intolerant statement! How about we restrict anybody who disagrees with you to a remote island in the South Pacific so you don't have to interact with them?

While neither you nor I may enjoy hearing revving engines, loud music at the beach, or people practice-shooting what often sounds like a cannon, you should respect the fact that those people who choose to "enjoy themselves" doing something different than what you consider "enjoyable" have every right to do so.

I love a weekend where I don't see or hear another living human. Its amazingly peaceful. But I accept that there are people who enjoy spending a weekend riding a dirt bike or a quad on established trails in the desert or in cool forests in Arizona's summer. Sometimes we can even peacefully co-exist in the same proximity because I try to acknowledge that not everybody is just like me.

Respect the law. Respect each other. Be happy.

[Jeffshadows]

I figured someone was going to come back with a reply like this one. Intolerant or not, look at the big picture: When we are both out on the trail at the same time they are bothering me, presenting a safety risk to me, and running all the wildlife off I wish to see, etc. The reverse is **not** true, however; by walking along and minding my own business I am not bothering them, and so on. It is they who must be contained to preserve the experience for all, not I.

On another note - I love the selective prosecution when it comes to what some think is bad etiquette. There are other active posters here who routinely bash people and their ideas, directly insult other posters, and make all kinds of megalomaniacal statements...yes, this happens routinely. I guess I don't hike up in the Supes enough to rate a fair shake when it comes to my opinion.

BTW, it's just that...my opinion. Armed with my opinion and $1.35 I can get a cup of coffee down the street and not much else. My opinion doesn't make me "wrong" or "dumb" or "immature" or whatever else. Don't like my opinion? Awesome, state yours...and leave it at that.

[Jeffshadows]

I'm not finished, I'm afraid.

For the record, I've been an OHV user since I first got my license. I have been four wheeling trails in the southern part of the state longer than most people have owned an ATV. There are old-timers on here that have been doing it longer than I've been alive and that's awesome and I'd love to pick their brains; my point is simply to make everyone understand where I'm coming from. I obey OHV rules and regs...always have. I'm safety-conscious and always, always adhere to "Tread Lightly." I stay on developed and marked FSRs and open trails. I'm active in OHV clubs down here, etc, etc. Most of my wheeling involves getting to a site or trail-head. Many folks here on HAZ four wheel for the same reasons or to hunt and fish, etc. I want to make it clear that my fight is not with you, you are my brethren. I'm after the sport-biker ATV-types doing it because it's trendy and they get a cheap thrill out of wrecking the landscape and getting to and destroying places their fat and/or lazy carcases couldn't get to previously under their own steam; and, yes, this describes a large percentage of those active in OHV use at this point in time. Those others on here who do a lot of off-roading around Tucson *know* I'm right about that statement.

One parting thought - I am actually surprised by the tone of the replies to this topic here on HAZ. All of the local SC, conservationist, and outdoor enthusiast meetings are hot with hellfire and brimstone speech about ATV riders and OHV use in general. Most of the groups down here seem to want to see a ban of some kind, not just restrictions. At least I'm trying to work with people...

[hippiepunkpirate]

When we are both out on the trail at the same time they are bothering me, presenting a safety risk to me, and running all the wildlife off I wish to see, etc. The reverse is **not** true, however; by walking along and minding my own business I am not bothering them, and so on. It is they who must be contained to preserve the experience for all, not I.

Well said!

BTW, it's just that...my opinion. Armed with my opinion and $1.35 I can get a cup of coffee down the street and not much else. My opinion doesn't make me "wrong" or "dumb" or "immature" or whatever else. Don't like my opinion? Awesome, state yours...and leave it at that.

Also well said! This forum is for exchanging information and ideas so we can all grow and improve as hikers and as people. Giving a different opinion than someone else is great, but insulting someone just because you aren't face to face is cowardly. Any communication I have with other people over the internet I try to do in either a constructive manner, or in a manner of friendly humor. I also very seldom post on issue topics because if someone wants to attack me, I want them to look me in the eye when they do it!

[JoelHazelton]

When I get tired of hearing ATVs I just head to my local "designated wilderness". I know there's a few of those around Tucson ;)

[Jeffshadows]

When I get tired of hearing ATVs I just head to my local "designated wilderness". I know there's a few of those around Tucson ;)

I know that's always an option. Problem is - you can still hear ATV engines in some of the wilderness areas down here.

[Dschur]

This was in the Payson paper resently about an ATV rider that "fixes" the trails that the PATS Payson Area Trail System volunteers have been working on.

Editor:
I and many others, having served our country, both in Korea and Vietnam, made great sacrifices to assure that every citizen continue to exercise their rights, to live under the protection of the Constitution of the United States of America while abiding by its laws and the laws of this state, county and municipality.
Some by choice, others by conscript, sustained disabilities, while others, through the normal aging process, have become infirm, disabled or just plain tired. I, for one, have been decreed as totally service-connected disabled as a result of service to my country and unfortunately my 13-year-old golden retriever, born with hip dysplasia (arthritis), also must share my only form of mobility for recreation purposes, an ATV.
Recently, to my dismay, it was noted that the Payson Trails and Recreation Department has appropriated most of the local national forest trails surrounding not only Payson, but the Town of Star Valley. It was advertised that thePayson Trails System would utilize the newly made available fire suppression cleared areas for the establishment of these trails, thereby enhancing business and promoting recreation.
Not only has PTS deferred the development of new trails surrounding Payson, their trails and recreation department has placed trail markers on many Tonto National Forest longtime established and maintained trails for the exclusive use of hikers, mountain bikers and horse riders. They have omitted previously authorized ATV users, such as me, my critter and other disabled, aged, infirm and other legal citizens.
For the past 17 years I have policed, repaired trails, removed down and dead trees and filled in erosion areas to prevent injury to hikers, horsemen, bikers and yes, ATV operators. I have trailed behind horseback riders and hikers and picked up their water bottles and yes, behind ATV Riders with their pop and beer cans. I have swerved off the trail to avoid kamikaze bikers, stopped with engine off for hikers and horsemen, given direction to lost personnel and generally been a good citizen, as have those with whom I ride.
So why do the hiker, the mountain biker and the horsemen/women feel that their taxes allow their individual group the exclusive right to the enjoyment and use of the national forest?
On Saturday, Feb. 9, I rode the South Boulder Trail, in both directions. In order to continue my travels, I was forced to remove 42 man-caused obstructions. I either rode over or around about 20 other selfishly placed blockages on that trail. Such disrespect and stupidity can cause grave injury to a fallen rider, be he or she a biker or horseman, or even a hiker. Any experienced ATV rider will do as I do, clear the right-of-way, or others will simply make a new trail.
There are federal regulations that will dramatically affect the establishment of the Payson Trails System that I will address with Payson Trails and Recreation, the Tonto National Forest representative in the Payson district and the federal attorney in Phoenix.
In addition, I and other ATV users, will be photographing those individuals who choose to block the use of my national heritage, the forest and its wonders of nature. License plate numbers combined with photos are easily combined, so says one of my former Marines, an ex-FBI agent.
The solution to the problem of misuse is simple. It is the same as enforcing the effectiveness of any law or regulation. Effective enforcement. Without it, anarchy. Dumping trash should be a $5,000 fine, but enforced. New DNA procedures would make enforcement much easier. Something to consider, huh!

[te_wa]

My $0.03

I call your 3 cents and raise you one... its a darn good thing we dont live in heavy snow, otherwise I could be sleeping in my squirrley little hammock and have a Snowmobile headed my way at 3 am doing 40-60 mph. Now that would not be fun..
my 4¢

[joebartels]

The solution to the problem of misuse is simple. It is the same as enforcing the effectiveness of any law or regulation. Effective enforcement. Without it, anarchy. Dumping trash should be a $5,000 fine, but enforced. New DNA procedures would make enforcement much easier. Something to consider, huh!

I like the idea but you can only squeeze a beat so hard. Whether or not you'll get any juice is questionable. $5,000 may not even cover government wages to get DNA results in our infrastructure. Besides, it won't do any good to fine them any more, they don't have money. Then what, load up the prisons. There's a great way to blow a hundred G's in taxes. Why don't we give them fifty thousand and call it even