recent rattlesnake issues

[Tough_Boots]

I have a friend who is buddies with some big poison control specialist in the Phoenix area who told me about a conversation they had recently. Poison control has been finding an increase in venom potency (not the amount expelled but concentrated potency) in rattlesnakes. Since snakes are easy to avoid when they announce themselves, the scarier part of what was mentioned was that they have found this year that they are rattling less and poison control is becoming worried that snakes that rattle less will spawn snakes that rattle less and less. I've noticed a couple triplogs lately mentioning snakes not rattling and have come across it once this summer and a couple that would only rattle for a very short period and then stop without any more distance being put between myself and the snake (or even when getting closer).

I would like to enter a conversation with this person from poison control but would like some more info to give him such as the experiences of others this year, what types of rattlesnakes these were, and where in the state they were encountered. Any info would be useful.

[Alston_Neal]

I don't mean to hijack a great thread, but why not.
Remember when we got our very own Major League ball team? It was during the MLB strike and we got our team and named them the Diamondbacks.
An astute person (not me) pointed out how apropo to name a team after something prone to striking....
Carry on.

[Tough_Boots]

I don't mean to hijack a great thread, but why not.

Well, I guess this is HAZ I'm dealing with.

[big_load]

It isn't clear what time periods you propose to compare. It's hard to say that I've noticed any change, because even going back to the dim and distant past, most of rattlers I've met didn't buzz, and I'm not including the probably much larger number that I stepped by or over without ever noticing. The trend I see is that a rattler is more likely to buzz me if it is startled than if it initially detected me from a greater distance and has been able to track my movement for a little bit.

[chumley]

...not including the probably much larger number that I stepped by or over without ever noticing.

I've often wondered how many such encounters I've had.

[Tough_Boots]

It isn't clear what time periods you propose to compare.

I'm just talking about experiences this year and wasn't planning on an all out research project or anything.

[Alston_Neal]

It might be interesting to have a Sticky poll on rattlesnake encounters.
It could be broken down into aggressive/non aggressive, rattle warning or silent and to be more accurate it should include location, time of year/day and temp if possible.
We have so many people in the field so to speak that we could start seeing percentages or even patterns develope.

[big_load]

aggressive/non aggressive

Reaching a common understanding on this distinction may be tricky. In any case, a snake would probably rather call it defensive than aggressive.

[Alston_Neal]

Good point, I guess it's perspective. You or the snake.
What made me think aggresive was a rattler my wife and I saw last year in the Anchas. Very animated and we were not going toward it but by it.
So maybe we should term it very defensive as in strike mode or moving away.

[Canyonram]

Hayes, William K., Mackessy, Stephen P. “Sensationalistic Journalism and Tales of Snakebite: Are Rattlesnakes Rapidly Evolving More Toxic Venom?” Wilderness & Environmental Medicine 21, no. 1 (2010): 35-45.

PIIS1080603210000608.pdf

(293.11 KiB) Downloaded 84 times

[big_load]

@Canyonram That was interesting. The logic looks pretty sound. Some people probably won't be convinced by anything less than direct comparison of samples over time, which would also have to control for the numerous factors the authors identified. Unless somebody effectively countered the logical arguments, such a study seems unlikely to get funded on a level playing field. However, the playing field isn't level any more when the the media take enough interest and public pressure ensues.

[CannondaleKid]

@Canyonram Thanks for posting that document, it's well worth the read. It goes to show that just because something is reported in the news doesn't make it factual, and in many cases it's far from fact. In this case it supports what I felt all along... it is VERY unlikely rattlers are evolving to rattle less or have more potent venom.

And I fully agree that the sensationalism used by the news media very likely leads to irrational fears, whether it be rattlesnakes, insects, animals, natural phenomena or what have you.

[skatchkins]

Had some asking for fishing, stars, lake time, and swimming so sis and husband accompanied the asker and I to the coves Friday night. We caught 5 large catfish (and 8+ throwbacks), got the craziest lightning show on the lake and above us, and got poured on for a healthy while a healthy few times. But we were prepared to swim anyway so we stayed out in it.
She and I walked up the right hill and out to the point and swam there. On the way back the cloudy moonlight shown just enough to make out the coiled non-rattling rattlesnake less than two feet away on the tight brushed ridge trail. Trying to not elicit too much panic, I said "Stop for a second and take two steps back slowly please." Some people have what could very nicely be called a phobia. After much consoling (and assuring her that just swimming back wasn't an option), I was able to tear free, returned and moved the snake then carried on the rest of the way up and then back down to the vehicles with a clinging weight riding on my back. A large owl on the trail also let me walk 5ft up on it (without rattling either!) before it gave in and flew away. Got home late/early? and cleaned the fish in the rising daylight.

[Canyonram]

Rattlesnakes 'rattle' as a last resort. Their venom is meant to kill their prey---and humans and other large bumbling beasts are not something they can eat. It is a waste of venom to bite something that isn't going to be a meal, one rationale why a good number of rattlesnakes strikes are 'dry.' After a strike, there is a recovery period for the snake to produce more venom. When approached by a large animal, the first tactic is camoflague and remaining still. They blend in so well with their surroundings that we move right over them. If a drunken teenager or curious dog or horse spots the snake and wants to invade the personal space around the snake, they will make noise via the tail quivering/rattle. A large number of snakes will do this, not just rattlesnakes. In the rattlesnakes, the 'rattle' has evolved to take the noise-making to a new level. The rattling serves at least two functions---it is an auditory warning that 'you are getting too close' and is a unique enough sound to get you to back away; it is also a good classical conditioning noise-maker (like Pavlov's dogs hearing the bell). The rattling sound stops us in our tracks---this is an automatic response to strange stimuli--- and buys the rattlesnake time---as we search the ground for the noise we see the snake poised to strke and, if we have any sense, we back away. The unique rattling sound is associated with the bite/illness. Horses that have been bitten and survived are taught a lesson in a single aversive conditioning event and will bolt and toss their rider if they again hear/see a rattler.

It makes no evolutionary sense for a rattlesnake to evolve venom at a strength that will kill an offending animal/man. If you kill the horse or the man, you have killed but a single enemy. If you make the animal/man seriously ill/sick, the social animals will train their young to avoid the snake.

A rattlesnake that has been pushed into 'rattling' is down to its last defense to protect itself. When you see a quivering rattlesnake in a strike position you are looking at a frightened creature ready to go 'All-In' in one last effort to stay alive.

Some Native American cultures believe it is wrong to kill a snake, even a rattlesnake, because it is a creature that has nothing, no arms or legs, and must crawl the Earth looking for food and shelter. If you take the life of a snake, you are a pretty miserable thief. The Navajo believe snakes are the earth-bound relatives to Lightning--one zigzags across the earth, the other zigzags through the sky--if you kill a snake, expect to be struck by a lighting bolt. The Hopi consider snakes to be the guardians of Springs. Their Snake Dance has the healers communicating the need for rain to the snakes by holding them in their mouth and speaking to the snake it the hope that it will then go back and let the need be known to the Rain Gods/spirit. There is some thought that over several thousands of years, the Hopi have been a selective force for passive snakes (such as the Grand Canyon Pink). Gathering up aggressive rattlers and bringing them back into the kiva for a ceremony didn't help the dancers and probably not the snakes.

[nonot]

Almost stepped on an AZ black today, bugger didn't rattle until the foot was coming down. Did a ballerina dance to avoid him and get away. I think by the time he finished coiling I was already 5 ft away and falling backwards