Red Rock Pass

[mttgilbert]

Whats the deal with the red rock pass. Does one need to be obtained ahead of time or can you get it once youre there? How much is it?

[Abe]

My turn, my -0.000000001 cents. The only fee area I have participated in is the Lynx Lake Recreation Area, $2.00 parking fee, or the domisticated campground fees. This is because I have a five year old daughter who I am encouraging to hike, camp, ect. Nice and easy trail, easy camping. My first three children, well, I think I may have scared them. As yet, I have not attempted to retrieve a Red Rock Pass. And I have been studying the sight on the subject. Prehaps some day. With that said I will get to the meat of the matter. Fee's are a love/hate subject to me. I like to think it does help, it appears it has for those trails in and around the Prescott area.

Generally, I make it a pratice to try and find find trails and area's that have no fee's. More often than not, these are unpopular trails, out of the way, which do not attract "mullet headed knuckle dragging bottom feeders" as well as, and in most cases, not many people.

[mttgilbert]

Generally, I make it a pratice to try and find find trails and area's that have no fee's.

this weekend we wanted a canyon area with swimming, cooler weather and thats not too far from phx; this is the one that best fit the bill, so we'll suck it up and pay the fee. Normally I try to do off trail hikes, so the whole paying at the trailhead thing doesn't really doesn't apply.

[jimmyrio]

Does anyone know what the penalty/fine is for not paying the ^##@*** fee?

[sherileeaz]

My turn, my -0.000000001 cents.

Geeshhhhh and I suppose you want change back too Abe?


Sherileeaz

[sherileeaz]

Does anyone know what the penalty/fine is for not paying the ^##@*** fee?

I was wondering that too? But I'm not the type not to pay the fee, but wonder if others are ticketed and for how much and etc. Maybe that's part of the fee, the cost to enforce it! UGH! By the time the fee is divided, probably .02 cents left for cleanup. Kind of like the solicitors for charities, they make more then the cause.

Ok I'm off my soap box... I think I'll go watch the soap operas on TV they make more sense! haha

Sherileeaz

[hikeaz]

Regarding what you can or cannot change; remember......

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

It's just like voting.... if you do not vote, it would be illogical to complain about the elected officials.

Send a Letter to the your County Board of Supervisors, or at least CALL.
Write a letter to the Coconino or Yavapai County Board of Supervisors explaining your disapproval of this program. Ask them to support a county resolution that would call on congress to terminate fee demo and restore funding to the recreation budgets of public land management agencies. Feel free to select one or more of the following to add to your letter. Personal comments/experiences work best. Please let them know that you want you letter shared with all members of the Board of Supervisors."


The Fee Demo program have been shown to discourage 1 in 4 lower income taxpayers from enjoying their public lands.
Fee Demo Programs are grossly inefficient: Over 50% of the proceeds are consumed in collection costs while less than 4% of the money collected helps the land itself.
Fee Demo has been created and lobbied for by trans-national business interests who are hoping to increase their control over our access to and enjoyment of our public spaces for ever greater private profit.
As a tax to enjoy our National heritage, the program has never been voted upon by our elected representatives.
The Fee Demo is intrusive. Reports of negative encounters with Rangers are increasingly common. In the Southwest, creating new infrastructure outspent caring for old maintenance problems by nearly two to one. More development will follow as the Forest Service pursues more visitation revenue.
Across the Nation people are being harassed for simply walking and smiling.

SEND TO:
Coconino County Board of Supervisors
County Administration Building
219 E. Cherry Ave.,
Flagstaff, AZ 86001
928-779-6693
Yavapai County Board of Supervisors
Yavapai County Administrative Building
1015 Fair Street
Prescott, AZ 86301
928-771-3200



National Contacts

To find your elected officials:
Your Congressional representative can be found here. For a state by state list of Senators, go here.
Call or write the U.S. Forest Service, your Congressmen, President George Bush or whomever you think might help. Tell them why you object to this "Demonstration Fee Program." Sign the attached petition from the Washington state organization "Free Our Forests," and gather additional signatures. And, if you dare, engage in a little civil disobedience. Go hiking without a permit!
It worked for Samual Adams (No, not the beer guy, the TEA guy

Local Contacts

SEDONA CITY COUNCIL
Mailing: 102 Roadrunner Drive, Sedona, AZ 86336
Phone: 928-204-3113 Fax No.928-204-7105
TDD: 928-204-7102

STAFF LIAISON
Pat Sullivan City Clerk
Work phone: 204-7103

MAYOR Dick Ellis 102 Roadrunner Drive, Sedona, AZ 86336
70 Longview Drive, Sedona, AZ 86336
Work phone : 204-7191
Fax: 204-7105
Email: dellis@city.sedona.net
VICE MAYOR Paul Tutnick 102 Roadrunner Drive, Sedona, AZ 86336
Work phone: 282-3050
Email: ptutnick@city.sedona.net


COUNCIL MEMBERS
Charles (Charlie) Crick 102 Roadrunner Drive, Sedona, AZ 86339
Work phone: 282-6007
Pager 204-3833
Fax 282-1906
Email: crick@sedona.net
Stephen Nahmanson 102 Roadrunner Drive, Sedona, AZ 86339
Evening phone 204-1930
Work phone 282-7554 x233
snahmanson@shradermartinez.com
Anita MacFarlane 102 Roadrunner Drive, Sedona, AZ 86339
Home phone 282-4063
Fax 282-4020
Email: ajmac@sedona.net
Susan Solomon 102 Roadnmner Drive, Sedona, AZ 86336
Work phone 204-9200
Email: ssolomon@city.sedona.net
Ernie Strauch 102 Roadrunner Drive, Sedona, AZ 86336
Home phone 282-6666
Email: strauch@commspeed.net






FLAGSTAFF CITY COUNCIL - 2002/2004
211 W. Aspen Avenue
Flagstaff, AZ 86001
Fax: 928-213-3019
OPINION HOTLINE: 928-779-7691
E-Mail: council@ci.flagstaff.az.us



JOSEPH C. DONALDSON Mayor (2004) (JANICE) 928-779-7600 (City - Message)
211 West Aspen Avenue 86001 779-0207 (Home)
779-7685; Ext. 675 (Voicemail)
E-Mail: jdonaldson@ci.flagstaff.az.us

Council Members
ART BABBOTT (2006) 928-779-7600 (City - Message)
211 West Aspen Avenue 86001 928-774-7781 (Home)
779-7685: Ext. 596 (Voicemail)
E-Mail: ababbott@ci.flagstaff.az.us
KAREN K. COOPER (2004) (DAVID) 928-779-7600 (City - Message)
211 West Aspen Avenue 86001 779-3058 (Home)
779-7685; Ext. 593 (Voicemail)
E-Mail: council@ci.flagstaff.az.us
JOE HAUGHEY (2006) (LIZ) 928-779-7600 (City - Message)
211 West Aspen Avenue 86001 928-774-3639 (Home)
779-7685; Ext. 594 (Voicemail)
E-Mail: jhaughey@ci.flagstaff.az.us
KARA KELTY (2004)
211 West Aspen Avenue 86001 (JOHN) 928-779-7600 (City ? Message)
928-773-8635 (Home)
779-7685; Ext. 589 (Voicemail)
E-Mail: kkelty@ci.flagstaff.az.us
LIBBY SILVA (2006) (ANN) 928-779-7600 (City - Message)
211 West Aspen Avenue 86001 526-3144 (Home)
E-Mail: council@ci.flagstaff.az.us
AL WHITE (2004) 928-779-7600 (City - Message)
211 West Aspen Avenue 86001 527-8567 (Home)
779-7685; Ext. 592 (Voicemail)
E-Mail: awhite@ci.flagstaff.az.us
DAVID WILCOX, CITY MANAGER
211 W. Aspen Avenue 86001
Telephone: 779-7604
Fax: 928-213-3014
E-Mail: dwilcox@ci.flagstaff.az.us

[hikeaz]

Re. the potential fine.....

From the NoFee website... "The Arizona No Fee Coalition has defended more than a dozen citizens charged with failing to pay access fees. Almost all of these cases were dismissed. The Forest Service must prove that a defendant was recreating on the land. Every case in which the defendant was not actually seen recreating by a ranger was dismissed. In Sedona, the maximum fine for not buying a pass is $30.

Protect yourself > don't just "lie down and take it"......

You've been out enjoying a walk in the forest, but when you get back to your car you discover that someone who is wearing a green uniform is waiting for you. If they have not yet seen you, and you have the time to spare, the easiest way to avoid being successfully prosecuted for alleged failure to purchase a pass is to hang out in the woods until the officers leave. Not always an option, but if you do this, and never have an encounter, and later find a ticket on your vehicle, Column II explains what to do.


IF YOU DO HAVE AN ENCOUNTER WITH AN ENFORCEMENT OFFICER/VOLUNTEER
you have a more difficult road ahead. Folks have won such cases, and folks have lost such cases. A lot depends upon the judge, and the level of readiness of the defendant.

THE FINES ARE REAL. The fact that this is a demonstration does not mean that the Forest Service can not issue tickets. They can, they do and the maximum fine authorized by Congress for a fee-demo offense is $100. Failure to cooperate with a Law Enforcement Officer who may be trying to write you a ticket is a different offense and carries severe penalties.

NEVER ADMIT THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE A PASS. Again, this will be difficult. But, the LESS YOU SAY THE BETTER. They will insist that you show identification. This may or may not be required, depending upon who you ask. If possible, show them nothing, do not sign the ticket they hand you, take the ticket they hand you and leave.

A more likely scenario is that you show them identification, they write you a ticket, you sign it, take it and leave - NEVER having admitted that you did not have a pass.

NEVER ADMIT THAT YOU WERE RECREATING. As noted below, a pass is required for recreating and FOR RECREATING ONLY. They will use the "facts" that you had shoes on, were wearing clothes and perhaps carrying food as "evidence" of the recreational nature of your visit. As noted below, the intent of your visit can be argued, and a charge dismissed on those grounds. For example: you could be on a religious retreat....

NEVER ADMIT THAT YOU OPPOSE THE PROGRAM. Again, the less you say the better.

SAVE YOUR ARGUMENTS FOR THE JUDGE. Do not argue with the person writing the ticket. They are "merely doing their job" and have no power over the program or its enforcement. Your moment will be with the prosecution in front of a judge.

THE FOREST SERVICE WILL TRY TO INTIMIDATE YOU. Of course, not every employee of the Forest Service will do so, but it is important to realize that this is a controversial program. Passions, and indeed the stakes, run high. The folks who are enforcing the program are largely "just doing their job," but they will do their jobs, and if that means prosecute you for a program you feel is undemocratic and unsuccessful they will do so.

You may be threatened with a fine of up to $5,000 and/or six months in jail. This has happened to many people. NOT ONE has had to pay a fine greater than $100, and NO ONE has had to serve ANY TIME for this charge. They may mention this greater fine at any time - at the trailhead, during the arraignment, or during the trial itself. Currently, Fee Demo is so unpopular that actually fining someone such an amount, or putting them in jail for even a day, would be a MAJOR publicity loss for the Forest Service and is not in the foreseeable future. We will let folks know, through these webpages, if this ever changes.

Hopefully, the above will help. For more information, visit the AntiFee Legal Website. There are also more informational links at the bottom of the Information Page. Please note that since there have been no precedent setting cases to date, information regarding the legality of both the Fee Demo program and the execution of the program is often contradictory and incomplete. However, the information collected by folks across the country involved with this issue represents the most complete collection to date.



So you found garbage on your windshield....
EVERYTHING YOU SAY CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU!

Before reading the rest of this page, please read the sentence above again! Thank you.
You've been out enjoying a walk in the forest, but when you get back to your car you discover that someone who was wearing a green uniform has vandalized it. Placed upon your windshield is a note telling you that you're parked illegally and berating you for having failed to purchase the required parking permit. You read on and are shocked to discover that the notice attempts to extort $30 from you unless you immediately pay $5 back payment. Faced with these options you ask yourself: "What should I do?"

REALIZE YOU ARE IN A VERY STRONG LEGAL POSITION. As long as YOU do not provide evidence to the authorities that you were ever at the site in question, this is an easy ticket to beat in court. If you say something in print or verbally that can be used to "prove" that you were where your car was, that will be used as evidence against you. The key is to remember that they have no evidence placing you at the "scene of the crime." Keep it that way.

DID YOU GET A TICKET OR A NOTICE OF NON-COMPLIANCE? The first thing to do is to look carefully at the citation you recieved. A Notice of Non-Compliance (NON) does not have a return envelope, and instructs you to mail your response to a local Arizona ranger district. HOWEVER, the NON is NOT a legally sanctioned ticket. Period. It requires no repsonse. Period. These can and should be thrown out.

The NON is used to trick people into incriminating themselves. It is not a legally binding ticket, but it has been designed to look like one. If one writes the Forest Service and signs a letter explaining why the NON was issued in error, they can use that signature as "evidence" that one was at the "site" in question.

Folks have collected over 18 NONs, at last count, and not recieved a real citation. Locally, folks have recieved two or three so far, with nothing else happening to date.

It is possible that a real ticket will eventually be issued. However, you will be in a much stronger position to both defend yourself and critique the program if you have not returned a NON with your signature.

IF YOU DO RECIEVE A REAL TICKET.. Again, remember that they have NO evidence placing you at the "scene of the crime." Although you must respond to the ticket, which you will mail to an out-of-state ticket processing facility, doing so merely means that you recieved the ticket. NOT that you were at the site in question. Return the ticket, call the media, go to court, critique the program WITHOUT INCRIMINATING YOURSELF and walk away without having to pay any fine. It's that simple.

A TICKET OR NON LEFT ON A VEHICLE is done so without any probable cause. The Forest Service does not know who committed the supposed offense, they do not know whether you were recreating and they do not know that a pass was not purchased, even if none was displayed.

People who have not incriminated themselves and who ask the judge whether the Forest Service has provided "probable cause" have NEVER FAILED to have their cases dismissed. In many courts, people who do not show up for their own hearing have their cases dismissed en masse for this reason. US Attorneys in two states will no longer even prosecute these cases.

"If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those of us who profess to favor freedom yet deprecate agitation are men who want the crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never has and it never will."
--Frederick Douglass, activist

[mttgilbert]

In response to jimmyrio's reply:

The funny thing about that is, there is no penalty for not paying the fines, in fact there is no legislative basis for the fees. (maybe for the more orgainzed ones like the red rock pass, but for purposes of this discussion I am only addressing national forest fees like the ones at peralta trailhead) The fees are instituted and regulated by the forest service. The fee programs have been set in place by the forest service in order to demonstrate that citizens are willing to pay to use their own land. There is therefore no legal basis for any "ticket" the forest service issues.

In response to hikeaz's reply:

You are absolutely correct in everything you said. You'll have to excuse my response earlier, you caught me in one of my more cynical moments. Don't let me discourage you. Do your part, every little bit does help, no matter how small. Civil disobedience should be reserved as a last resort (which isn't to say I have never hiked without a permit and I have never recieved a ticket of any kind) I usually try to avoid fee areas all together, in fact I do most of my hiking on fee-trails after April in order to avoid the fees without breaking any rules (they take the fee boxes down when it gets warmer). The best way to defeat the fee system may be to not use it (no funds = no program). I have found that off trail hikes are both more fulfilling and completely free (no developed areas). This, of course, is not the solution for everyone. off trail hiking takes a lot of experience and should not be attempted by the uninitiated hiker.

Thanks again Kurt for putting it back in perspective for me.

[JimmineyGrl]

In response to hikeaz's reply:

Thank you for posting that information!! I think we should all write letters and also try to spread awareness. I didn't know about this issue until it was posted here.

[joebartels]

Kurt you have good info on how to avoid fines and hopefully someday rid the fines.

Great energy, appreciated!

What's your angle on keeping high-use forest clean?

[hikeaz]

Joe,

Per the USFS's own numbers, only 4% of the Red Rock monies are being returned to upkeep of the subject forest. They have hired more "meter-maids", bought more trucks, made up "Red Rock Passes", issue brochures, etc. but the trails, but for 1 or 2 exceptions, are essentially unchanged.

The limits on trail usage previously were sometimes brought on by a parking shortage at some trailheads; that was not a completely BAD thing, IMHO.
I feel that 96% shrinkage of our permit/tax dollar is unpardonable. the Government always decries "well, we have to try SOMETHING"....
Basically, I don't see where we have to do something that creates more layers in Government, generates only 4% efficiency, and alienates people - all within the same "plan".

Seems to me, that if I worked for the USFS and wanted areas cleared/improved/repaired, that I would put out a letter, news story, TV story that I was in need of volunteers to do trail work, and the like. To date, I have not seen any of the above, in spite of "running" a hiking club for over 6 years.
I have spent 20 days every year since 1999 cleaning up the San Juan River in Utah. We had to approach THEM (BLM) to do the clean-up. Don't get me wrong, they appreciate it, and help in any way that they can; it is just that I think that before I instituted a program with 4% effeciency, I would exhaust the FREE, or cheaper alternatives.

At the risk of "painting everyone with the same brush", it occurs to me that, generally, the further that I get from the access area, the less litter/trash/destruction, etc that I encounter.

Examining that, I can surmise that: the more difficult to access an area that either :A) less people make the effort B) only persons wanting a wilderness experience will make the trip.
So, is the reduced destruction based on the fact that only "outdoor-oriented types" make the trip, or because "outdoor oriented types" do not, generally, cause destruction? Good question....
Either way, the impact to the site is lessened by limiting "improvements" to access.

I understand that may sound exclusionary, and likely is. However, CHARGING for access to NATIONAL lands is, as well, exclusionary. It's just for a different reason..... MONEY
I also wonder about the thought process of some tourists.... would they, after paying an admittance/parking/recreation/sightseeing fee, maybe expect that someone, by virtue of collecting money from them, should pick up AFTER them ?? Whereas, if they were in the "wilderness"??

Some folks may not be aware that the Coconino Forest surrounding Sedona is closed to camping of any kind ! The overcrowded FEE areas are the exception. Whereas, the same Forest, but accessed from the Flagstaff area, is wide open; even so much as to be open from the top of Secret Canyon, West Fork, as well as other known easements from Woody Mountain Rd. It could be that the residents and Forest Service might have struck a deal to "exclude" mere "campers". Maybe in an attempt to fill the sagging hotelier coffers......

Slide Rock S.P. was just closed for the umteenth time due to elevated e coli, and it costs $7.00 (I believe) to enter IT.

I feel that if it is a "wild erness" area, there should be some "wild" to it. To attempt to "tame" the area so that everyone can see it is like installing chair lifts all over Grand Canyon so that we don't have to climb all those pesky trails, and all.
If a person is not in shape enough to climb Mt. Whitney, they can't go, period. No mules, No Tram, No sidewalk, No oxygen tanks along the trail.

I understand that this is ranting; but to answer your question, I'd say that we're "fixing" something that is not broken. The USFS wants to charge money to build improvements ($.04 for every dollar), that encourage more visitors, that then want MORE improvements, and so on. Seems that city people want to go to the "wilderness", but with all of the comforts of home.

I advocate that we let the wilderness be wild, and not attempt to "manage" it to death.

[joebartels]

Basically you feel we're fixing something that is not broken & the fees are only creating more access to the forest.

I agree on the access, good point! I certainly don’t want a Target parking lot in front of West Fork.
For instance, Camelback is tiny. I can never get in… and amen! I’ll wait my turn or bike the extra two miles for access.

I appreciate the response Kurt, thanks!
You gave me a new view on access. Though you won’t agree with what I say below, I always appreciate you’re response & everybody else too! For the record nobody has been banned on HAZ for disagreeing with me

I loose contact with you on “there was never a problem to begin with”
It may or may not be true. I believe the foresight of increased numbers on the trails is what’s in play.
Sedona is and is destined to be a tourist magnet. The same goes for the trails because they are short-sweet-day-hikes for the most part.
I feel there was a justified reason for action. Yes, I realize I’m one of the few

The Bell Trail & Tonto Narrows aren’t doing so well.
I asked “What's your angle on keeping high-use forest clean”
You mention volunteering. This is an approach. But it’s really not “working”. You said it yourself “20 days every year since 1999 cleaning up the San Juan River”.
Also, HAZ members cleaned up Tonto Narrows a month ago and it’s already trashed.
It’s been mentioned before and you touched on it briefly... “Longer Access” This seems to be the best answer I’ve heard.
You like to think the local businesses got together with the forest service to implement out-of-reach camping near Sedona. Personally I just feel it was well planned out and it’s working! Can you imagine what it’d be like otherwise!!! Personally I don’t think “let the wilderness be wild” floats in a high traffic area like Sedona, but I respect your opinion.

I understand only pennies on the dollar go to trail maintenance. Personally I feel it’s more mental psych. Although not 100% I believe it has a very good return. Matt mentioned the no fee permit system. I like this idea, it seems to work pretty good. However, those permits don’t print themselves. Nor are they handed out by thin air. Sure volunteers can do this, but for myself I feel bad because I really don’t have much spare time to contribute to volunteering. I barely sleep as it is, a couple bucks is a bargain for me.
I realize I’m going the wrong way for most here but the few bucks for permits still doesn’t bother me.
When I think about the McDowell preserves and the $3? access...
This used to bug the heck out of me. It’s burnt up flat desert!!! What’s going on with the FEE!
Then when I think about high school raves and such out there, I think man three bucks is cheap!
It doesn’t matter that we already pay taxes. The permit system is a gate & mental psych.

[MaryPhyl]

I hate the fees. That said, Oak Creek Canyon has always been off limits to open camping--this is nothing new. I think it might be because there is so much private property in the canyon. So many people want to camp there that it would be disasterous if they all could. Any fires need to be in the grates in the campgrounds. There are many millions of dollars worth of homes in the canyon.

[Lizard]

I do not personally mind reasonable fees at high-traffic areas. However, I do not want to see ALL areas implement a fee, and with the precedents being set in areas like Sedona, this is not as unlikely as you think. It would be a crying shame if it became impossible to hike anywhere without paying fees.

Second, I don't mind reasonable fees. The fees in some areas are all out of proportion. Currently, it costs $80 for a simple four-day hike for two people in the Grand Canyon once you add up all the fees. This seems outrageous to me. One of the things I love about backpacking is its egalitarian nature. Any kid who wants to get out and explore the country can do so for the price of gas to the trailhead. But steep fees close off the parks to people who are less advantaged financially.

As long as fees are kept reasonable and only in high-traffic areas, I don't mind them. But I think as the fee system goes on, the USFS and NPS will become more dependent on them. Already, the government is cutting funding based on the money being generated by fees. As the USFS and NPS become more dependent on fees to survive the fees will continue to rise, and be implemented in areas where they are not needed. Because of all this, I oppose fees, and show my opposition by avoiding the areas that charge them.

Lizard

[hikeaz]

re. No Camping in the Forest around Sedona....

My apologies for not having been clearer.......I was speaking about the wide-open forest (scrub) west of town. north of 89A :e.g. Dry Creek Road, etc. FR525, FR152 & FR152C - out on the way to, and past the Enchantment Resort.
There is next to no development there (USFS Land), and it is virtually "unburnable".

[pbaenzig]

In response to Glitter's reply:Yearly Red Rock Pass is $20 for parking only. If you also want to have "free" access to Call of the canyon, Grasshopper Point, Red Rock Crossing and some other recreation areas, then the annual fee is $40. If you're over 65 and have one of the Nationa Park Golden Age cards, you get a 50% discount. The discount may also apply for Golden Eagle National Park passes, but I'm not sure.

Peter B

[Glitter]

In response to pbaenzig's reply:
Thanks for the info Peter B., but I think I've decided to just stay away from Sedona altogether. I would rather drive a little further and pay nothing to be in solitude, instead of going to the new Disneyland!

[MaryPhyl]

In response to Glitter's reply:

Amen to that. MP

[Nighthiker]

At one time the area around Sedona was in the national forest, but some of the land was exchanged with the AZ State Land Dept.

[sventre]

I've been hiking the trails around Sedona this week and was especially pleased to have them pretty much to myself. Couple of items worthy of note:

[1] FR152 hasn't been graded lately and is posted for HIGH CLEARANCE/4WD only. There are idiots out there destroying the undercarriage of their sedans, so the warning makes sense;
[2] Noted today, though not highly visible, but posted at many trailheads-- Forest Service is temporarily NOT ENFORCING RED ROCK PASS requirements at many popular sites. Don't know for how long, but it is worth checking out if you're only coming up for the day;
[3] A few of the HAZ described trails have been "obscured" by either the Forest Service or someone else. Notably, Lost Canyon, Mescal Mountain and the ridge line alternate (to the ruins and caves") running east and parallel to Long Mountain Trail.

Great weather/grand hiking.